David Cameron savages Boris Johnson

[barrydidit]

Sorry, can't see that happening. Article 50 will be put in place and there will be no more negotiations, just think, you do it for one, you're going to have to do it for all. As it is Britain is already the EU's most semi-detached member, having opted out of joining the euro single currency, the Schengen zone of passport-free travel and many areas of police and judicial cooperation.

Nah, they'll be back. Just like with the Irish and the others I can't remember about.

[AtW]

Nah, they'll be back. Just like with the Irish and the others I can't remember about.

Ireland was in eurozone.

[DodgyAgent]

OTOH, one could argue that he had given Cameron and/or the EU a fair chance to agree something substantial, the kind of things Cameron was previously boasting he could and would achieve.

So now Cameron has achieved essentially nothing, it perfectly reasonable and consistent for Johnson, not having prejudged the outcome, now to conclude dispassionately that we're better off out.

He may also be thinking of something that several people have commented on here and elsewhere, namely that a majority vote to leave would give the UK more leverage in obtaining genuine concessions and firmer commitments.

Quite and I am sure politics are behind what Boris believes. He does have a very strong point about sovereignty and even accepts that even if the UK votes out it may not actually mean that the UK ends up leaving. The "principle" here is one of sovereignty and the gradual surrender of our powers to manage our own laws and affairs something that millions have died for in wars in the last century.

[barrydidit]

Ireland was in eurozone.

I meant whatever it was they rejected and then had to vote again once it had been 'explained' to them.

Maybe it was this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_...ion_referendum

Which invalidates my point, but this is General so maybe nobody will notice.

[AtW]

I meant whatever it was they rejected and then had to vote again once it had been 'explained' to them.

It was to do with ratification of Treaty of Lisbon - incomparable issue with leaving EU: first attempts was negative, but on second they ratified it, and why not - it's not the same as I am leaving, no I am staying! Had they not ratified it then there would have been some other treaty to vote on later - same content, different name.

[barrydidit]

It was to do with ratification of Treaty of Lisbon - incomparable issue with leaving EU: first attempts was negative, but on second they ratified it, and why not - it's not the same as I am leaving, no I am staying!

Well since nobody ever left before we don't know how they'll react to a No vote. Except when we think about all the other times they've received a No vote, and the populace had to have another try.

[AtW]

Well since nobody ever left before

Nobody will ever leave...

[jamesbrown]

OTOH, one could argue that he had given Cameron and/or the EU a fair chance to agree something substantial, the kind of things Cameron was previously boasting he could and would achieve.

So now Cameron has achieved essentially nothing, it perfectly reasonable and consistent for Johnson, not having prejudged the outcome, now to conclude dispassionately that we're better off out.

He may also be thinking of something that several people have commented on here and elsewhere, namely that a majority vote to leave would give the UK more leverage in obtaining genuine concessions and firmer commitments.

Yep. FWIW, I'm firmly with his position, although I don't see the second referendum as a sensible negotiating position or selling point to voters (it's too easily dismissed), more a commentary on what would happen in practice. My problem is purely with the way he went about his announcement. Yes, he's a perennial ditherer, but it was perfectly clear to Gove and others that Cameron wasn't asking for anything that could moved the needle, and I'd be stunned if Boris weren't of that opinion too. The rivalry between Boris and ham-face is longstanding and well-known; he doesn't owe CM Dave a thing. We'll never really know how much of his dithering was positioning vs. agonising, but my belief is that it was the former in no small measure, and most other pundits seem to agree (from both sides).

[MicrosoftBob]

I'd rather it was Gove and BoJo running the show than Hameron and Gideot

[MicrosoftBob]

Sorry, can't see that happening. Article 50 will be put in place and there will be no more negotiations, just think, you do it for one, you're going to have to do it for all. As it is Britain is already the EU's most semi-detached member, having opted out of joining the euro single currency, the Schengen zone of passport-free travel and many areas of police and judicial cooperation.

As we were never asked about joining the EU is it any wonder we're a little detached, our politicians lied about what the common market meant