Junior doctors

[d000hg]

And they deserve a decent pay packet whereas agencies and their staff members.....

Luckily, they already get paid very well. Which I think is totally fine.

[DaveB]

If only it were as simple as that. 'Why having so many women doctors is hurting the NHS' | Daily Mail Online
And though you may be right in placing your sympathy with the NHS I prefer to keep an open mind. I am deeply suspicious of monopolies and people who say they are doing things for the benefit of others. Furthermore weekend NHS availability is a skeleton service. As soon as someone strikes then they reveal themselves as just ordinary people as selfish as the rest of us.

That article is 2 years old, is complete bollocks and has nothing to do with the current dispute.

[SueEllen]

Don't you have private medical insurance?

If I'm an emergency patient in the UK I will be treated by the NHS. So regardless of whether I have private medical insurance or not, I don't want an exhausted doctor treating me.

[DodgyAgent]

That article is 2 years old, is complete bollocks and has nothing to do with the current dispute.

So there are not more women working as doctors?
Or women are as happy to work long hours as the men
Or both??

[unixman]

I don't have a great deal of sympathy with the junior doctors. Yes they may work long hours, but that is due to the way their industry is organised, and the high rate of doctor's pay overall, which is maintained by the BMA (the doctors union) through an effective closed shop and restrictive staffing practices. If doctors were paid less, we could employ more of them and reduce the hours worked by each doc.

Junior docs may start out on a modest wage, but they are destined to rapidly become some of the richest people in society in later years, as well as commanding an almost god-like status, as well as enjoying the most lavish pensions that the public sector has to offer, and job security that would be the envy of 99% of the population.

[SueEllen]

I don't have a great deal of sympathy with the junior doctors. Yes they may work long hours, but that is due to the way their industry is organised, and the high rate of doctor's pay overall, which is maintained by the BMA (the doctors union) through an effective closed shop and restrictive staffing practices. If doctors were paid less, we could employ more of them and reduce the hours worked by each doc.

Junior docs may start out on a modest wage, but they are destined to rapidly become some of the richest people in society in later years, as well as commanding an almost god-like status, as well as enjoying the most lavish pensions that the public sector has to offer, and job security that would be the envy of 99% of the population.

The NHS has always relied on foreign doctors simply because not enough doctors are trained due to the cost to the government.

The two years there were enough junior doctors graduating under the Blair government there were not enough first jobs for them so a lot were forced to go abroad and haven't returned.

So even if the wages are lowered, which apparently the BMA agreed so the working hours weren't increased, there would still be a doctor shortage which could only be filled by recruiting more foreign doctors.

[DaveB]

So there are not more women working as doctors?
Or women are as happy to work long hours as the men
Or both??

Leaving aside that this was a personal opinion piece and not the result of any sort of formal study, the a few things the article completely overlooks in the context of the current dispute are:

1. Prior to graduation ALL doctors do 3 years academic study followed by 2 years doing what amounts to unpaid Work Experience as trainee Doctors in hospitals.
2. After graduation ALL Junior Doctors spend at least 2 years after they graduate working in Hospitals. They work on 4 month rotations moving between specialisations. This includes A&E, Surgery, Orthopaedics, Paediatrics etc. If they don't complete this training they cannot progress to specialise in a particular area of medicine. They make up the bulk of the doctors you will see should you end up in hospital for any reason. Consultants and Registrars are the specialists and there are generally only a few in any one department. Assuming they have filled all the posts.

No female Dr. wants to get pregnant during 1 or 2 as it completely scuppers their future career.

3. After completing their 2 years in hospitals at stage 2 most female doctors elect to specialise in General Practice, not in one of the Hospital disciplines. This sis mostly down to the male dominated culture of hospital medicine. For all the talk of equality and the article claiming there will be more female doctors than male by 2017, hospital medicine is still a male dominated arena, especially in the surgical specialisations. It is extremely difficult for female doctors to progress in hospital medicine. Added to this General Practice offers much more scope for flexibility in working arrangements than hospital medicine. Many GP practices actively encourage part time working in order to fill vacancies and limit spending on locums.

The upshot of all this is that the impact of Female Dr's going part time or leaving the profession altogether due to pregnancy has very little relevance to the staffing of hospitals and the current dispute. By the time they may start thinking about taking maternity leave they will have already have spent a minimum of 4 years working in hospitals and are more than likely going to leave hospital medicine anyway.

[Churchill]

Usual reminder that the term "Junior Doctor" covers doctors for between five and fifteen years or even longer, depending on specialism and various other factors, after they first qualify as a doctor. I wouldn't be surprised if the cardiologist who carried out my emergency angioplasty - at around 7pm on a Sunday evening, for those who believe Hunt's bulltulip about weekend cover - was officially categorised as a "junior doctor" as I don't think he was more than forty or so years old.

Then again mate, you are a pinko lefty trotskyite bastard!

Christ on a bike, I've just read some of the other posts, most of you are champagne socialists!

[unixman]

The NHS has always relied on foreign doctors simply because not enough doctors are trained due to the cost to the government.

The two years there were enough junior doctors graduating under the Blair government there were not enough first jobs for them so a lot were forced to go abroad and haven't returned.

So even if the wages are lowered, which apparently the BMA agreed so the working hours weren't increased, there would still be a doctor shortage which could only be filled by recruiting more foreign doctors.

The doctor supply is partly controlled by the BMA, using an effective closed shop and restrictive practices, which allows the charging of extremely high prices. Junior doctors are trained by senior doctors. If the seniors were paid less the training would be cheaper. The BMA could also improve the supply of doctors by encouraging more doctors to train, or by being less greedy in their pay negotiations with the government, or by allowing more flexible practices, or by other means. For example, the NHS could pay specialists and GPs less, in order to give juniors a bigger slice. But any reform or change of this kind is routinely opposed by the BMA. (As an aside, I also think it is wrong to "steal" doctors from places like Tanzania where they are probably needed more).

Under Blair, poor government negotiation gave doctors a huge pay rise while actually reducing out-of-hours care. The BMA stitched up the government/NHS into a contract highly favourable to senior doctors, and unfavourable to patients and everyone else. Perhaps the junior doctors should ask what role the BMA plays in them getting such a small slice of the pie, (if that is how they see 37k per year) and vote with their feet.

[OnceStonedRose]

Then again mate, you are a pinko lefty trotskyite bastard!

Christ on a bike, I've just read some of the other posts, most of you are champagne socialists!

I'd rather be called a champagne socialist with at least an inkling of sympathy for my neighbour than a horrid elitist selfish ****.