Crackdown on personal service companies could raise £400m in tax

[BolshieBastard]

Except in a recent legal judgement the tribunal found it had taken 4.5 years for the contractor to become integrated.

What is your statement based upon? It seems to be that it is purely because you haven't worked on a large project before.

All of which is BS. Everyone with a shred of intelligence knows it doesnt take 4+ years to become integrated.

And your assumption is incorrect. Ive worked on a number of long projects pre IR35.

Anyone who works 12 months or more is effectively a permie tractor.

[Zero Liability]

They already do, I've had a few calls about jobs with them as part of the reorgansiation. 3 months with a good chance of extenstion.

It's probably why the stuff described in the OP is just the usual FUD.

[centurian]

While on the rapid speculation mode, it's also worth highlighting that there is a noticeable difference between being forced to operate IR35 as a LtdCo and being forced to use an umbrella/PAYE - roughly £3-4K net for a £500pd contractor - this is due to gains made on the VAT flat rate scheme, plus the 5% expenses.

[seeourbee]

I'm not IT. My view in IT is that if it's a genuine project - I.e. Has a finite end then agree a price for the whole project up front and it takes as long as it takes. If you were truly IT contractors you shouldn't have an issue with that in the main.

[ShandyDrinker]

I'm not IT. My view in IT is that if it's a genuine project - I.e. Has a finite end then agree a price for the whole project up front and it takes as long as it takes. If you were truly IT contractors you shouldn't have an issue with that in the main.

I'm in IT and have agreed prices upfront on smaller projects in the past. The big problem here is that the larger corporates often don't seem to be interested in doing this as it would require the client to plan properly. In my opinion with the current darling of the IT world that is Agile (where's my Certified Scrum Master/Product Owner/etc qualification?!) it is hard to agree a price upfront. I know that some of my previous clients would baulk at the thought of a fixed price contract, as they'd be pinned down on deliverables and there is a chance that I'd be able to deliver earlier and make a decent profit. Of course if I take the risk and make a loss as I underestimate, they would not care less.

[DaveB]

I'm in IT and have agreed prices upfront on smaller projects in the past. The big problem here is that the larger corporates often don't seem to be interested in doing this as it would require the client to plan properly. In my opinion with the current darling of the IT world that is Agile (where's my Certified Scrum Master/Product Owner/etc qualification?!) it is hard to agree a price upfront. I know that some of my previous clients would baulk at the thought of a fixed price contract, as they'd be pinned down on deliverables and there is a chance that I'd be able to deliver earlier and make a decent profit. Of course if I take the risk and make a loss as I underestimate, they would not care less.

+1

I do quote for fixed price jobs, x days effort for y deliverables and on my head be it if I miss that, but it's only for smaller organisations, or the odd rarity that actually knows what they want and how long it's likely to take.

The problem is the big organisations who cannot plan for this. They know they need something doing but have no idea what the scope or duration of the work is, so they just get somone in for 3 months, and if it's not done at the end of that they extend them. It's only when the tulip hits the fan and the project becomes at risk that they get really focussed on things being delivered, usually in unreasonable timescales.

[Zero Liability]

What was outlined in this article would be a more reasonable test IMO:

Why Supervision and Direction are surely red herrings :: Contractor UK

[MrMarkyMark]

Anyone who works 12 months or more is effectively a permie tractor.

Not that simple, IMO.
Some banking regulatory programs, for example, BCBS, are going to run a lot longer than that.
They have deliveries due, at certain points, during that time, to the regulators.

Once the program is done and dusted, there is no intention to keep the staff.

[DaveB]

All of which is BS. Everyone with a shred of intelligence knows it doesnt take 4+ years to become integrated.

And your assumption is incorrect. Ive worked on a number of long projects pre IR35.

Anyone who works 12 months or more is effectively a permie tractor.

Not always.

Gig I'm on with Client A at the moment is a 5 year project in the public sector with a drop dead delivery date that will be *very* public when it happens. No guarentee I'll be on it for the whole project but a good chance. However once it's delivered that will be it. No further work. The permies will stay on, and those that were seconded to the project from other areas will go back to their original departments. I'll be out the door.

I'm also working with two other clients in parallel with this and each knows the other two exist.

[jamesbrown]

All of which is BS. Everyone with a shred of intelligence knows it doesnt take 4+ years to become integrated.

And your assumption is incorrect. Ive worked on a number of long projects pre IR35.

Anyone who works 12 months or more is effectively a permie tractor.

Spoken like someone with a very narrow set of experiences in a particular industry (and I don't care how long you've been doing it). There's a definite tendency on CUK to assume that all contractors are in IT or operate in a particular way, and perhaps the majority are/do, but there are many that don't. For example, I have one 2yr T&M contract about to start that is going to require ~6 weeks of my time in total. Integrated Same applies to my fixed price contracts, where the time period is often fixed for mutual convenience (i.e. not working on it full time).