UK referendum - EU membership

[DodgyAgent]

It's also worth noting that, through our involvement, we can encourage other countries with poorer standards to adopt improved standards. If we opt out of everything, we have little basis to argue that other countries should adopt stricter standards. For example, take a look at the history of acidification of forests and water bodies throughout Northern Europe, including the UK (i.e. "acid rain"). These problems were only reversed through cross-border cooperation on air pollution.

Cross border cooperation is totally different to a single unaccountable governing institution making laws for everyone.

[minestrone]

Cross border cooperation is totally different to a single unaccountable governing institution making laws for everyone.

Name me one law from the mythical European super state that has significantly impacted on you that has been opposed by the democratically elected government of the UK.

[xoggoth]

Very quick Google brings up quite a few past and present differences. EU data protection law, restrictions on plastic bag use, human rights act, use of EU funds to bail out Euro, financial regulations, banking bonus controls, laws on fracking, restrictions on tobacco use, free movement, merchant shipping act, CETA, poultry meat rules.

I would say some of those could impact us all very significantly.

[AtW]

Name me one law from the mythical European super state that has significantly impacted on you that has been opposed by the democratically elected government of the UK.

Metric Directive 80/181/EEC, probably...

[minestrone]

Very quick Google brings up quite a few past and present differences. EU data protection law, restrictions on plastic bag use, human rights act, use of EU funds to bail out Euro, financial regulations, banking bonus controls, laws on fracking, restrictions on tobacco use, free movement, merchant shipping act, CETA, poultry meat rules.

I would say some of those could impact us all very significantly.

Yes, my life has been severely impacted due to plastic bag use.



You need to get a life

[Flashman]

Actually, you seem to be missing the point. We're not capable of (effectively) legislating on those things independently because the environmental sources, sinks and flows between them are completely unrelated to administrative borders, so policies taken in one jurisdiction can directly impact those taken in others. There are countless examples of this w/r to water pollution, river basin management, North Sea fisheries and many other areas of environmental protection/exploitation. Governments will look after their own citizens with one eye on election cycles. Environmental management requires a longer term approach based on cross-border agreement and coordinated action.

So the proles would be better off under some sort of Green fascism?.

The trouble is the Greens actually believe this. Hence their love for the EU.

[Flashman]

Name me one law from the mythical European super state that has significantly impacted on you that has been opposed by the democratically elected government of the UK.

The British government doesn't oppose EU legislation. It implements it.

To be fair it has tried occasionally. However every single time the UK has tried to block a law it opposes in the EU Council of Ministers that law has been introduced anyway.

http://forbritain.org/measuring_brit..._ministers.pdf

[jamesbrown]

What makes the European Union capable of making decisions on behalf of multiple member states? I find it quite astonishing that people like you can be so naive to think that an undemocratic institution can make any sort of decision for the benefit of people who have no say in how it is elected. Water management in the Uk is our own business. we do not share rivers with other countries. Because an institution sets itself out to be a benign corporation it never is unless it has the harsh levers of democracy controlling it. I would challenge you to give one example of where an institution with minmal accountability has ever exerted its authority in a way to benefit the people it is supposed to serve.

You're out of your depth. I'd suggest you try turning off the instant EU-phobia for a minute and consider evaluating specific actions on their own merits, but I doubt you're capable of engaging with the substance. I've already given an example of where cross-border cooperation has made a massive difference (air pollution). Would you like more? Whether this cooperation is achieved through the EU or some other vehicle (as in this example) makes no odds to me. I can provide examples of both sensible and ill-conceived EU policies. Substance matters.

I also find it rather amusing (in a patronising sort of way) that you view national institutions as necessarily better at achieving the democratic accountability you espouse, with recent examples including the success of UKIP in the GE. Democracy in action

[jamesbrown]

So the proles would be better off under some sort of Green fascism?

Nope, on the contrary. Where it makes sense for multiple democracies to agree cross-border action, why wouldn't you support that? I assume you'd want us to negotiate bilateral trade agreements outside of the EU.

[BlasterBates]

If Britain had implemented all EU laws from the council of ministers, it would have the Euro.

I think there is a flaw in the logic somewhere.