FLCs - LFIG Proposal

[mudskipper]

It excludes those who really are self-employed - such as a plumber who has a plumber's mate.

I honestly thought it was a typo.

[Pondlife]

What is the legal definition of a PSC?

AFAIK, we were quite happy that there wasn't one legally defined.

[mudskipper]

What is the legal definition of a PSC?

There is no legal definition as you well know.

[eek]

AFAIK, we were quite happy that there wasn't one legally defined.

My point entirely..

[tractor]

....

Does that include everyone who uses an umbrella to avoid IR35? Or are you ,is-reading the definition of Self Employed in this context?

Lots.

LMAO 500 pages of tosh telling us that no detail exists and you point everyone to the document that doesn't detail anything and that caused all the consternation in the first place.

[TykeMerc]

Indeed, it still looks like total capitulation on IR35, a realisation that abandoning their support base needs to fill that gaps so that they can survive (the dishonourable route) so they're trying to appeal to the self employed. This manifesto link is simply compounding the impression that IPSE hasn't got its old core memberships interests in mind let alone at heart.

It looks, smells, acts and quacks like a duck I think it's actually a duck, no matter how hard that Mal tries to claim it's a pigeon.

[eek]

Indeed, it still looks like total capitulation on IR35, a realisation that abandoning their support base needs to fill that gaps so that they can survive (the dishonourable route) so they're trying to appeal to the self employed. This manifesto link is simply compounding the impression that IPSE hasn't got its old core memberships interests in mind let alone at heart.

It looks, smells, acts and quacks like a duck I think it's actually a duck, no matter how hard that Mal tries to claim it's an elephant (in the room).

ftfy.....

[tractor]

Does that include everyone who uses an umbrella to avoid IR35? Or are you ,is-reading the definition of Self Employed in this context?

Lots.

The whole premise of a Limited Company is based on an entity that is legally separate from it's owners (shareholders).

Anyone who has to use an umbrella because of their working practices is not self employed.

Anyone can attempt to redefine any terms so it fits their own context. Doesn't make it either sensible in reality or law. That is why they cannot define PSC. If they actually managed to, IR35 would be out the window because the service/services argument comes into play and no one would be caught.

So perverting the term self employed to suit the cause does not cut it. Do you seriously think that HMRC would approve an FLC that allows bazillions of brolly workers to get out tax free? Oh I forgot, they would have to sign up to pay a 'fair salary/dividend split'. Who is going to set that, I wonder? 95/5 in favour of PAYE lol. That would not net them any additional tax and would put loads of brollies into administration

[malvolio]

The whole premise of a Limited Company is based on an entity that is legally separate from it's owners (shareholders).

Anyone who has to use an umbrella because of their working practices is not self employed.

Anyone can attempt to redefine any terms so it fits their own context. Doesn't make it either sensible in reality or law. That is why they cannot define PSC. If they actually managed to, IR35 would be out the window because the service/services argument comes into play and no one would be caught.

So perverting the term self employed to suit the cause does not cut it. Do you seriously think that HMRC would approve an FLC that allows bazillions of brolly workers to get out tax free? Oh I forgot, they would have to sign up to pay a 'fair salary/dividend split'. Who is going to set that, I wonder? 95/5 in favour of PAYE lol. That would not net them any additional tax and would put loads of brollies into administration

If, after all this discussion, you have not realised that there are employers, employees and self-employed people in the workforce, it is pointless arguing any further.

What vehicle the 4.5 million use, be it Ltd Co, LLP, Sch D, SAR declaration of earned income, umbrella or whatever, they only work for themselves, hence they are self-employed. Accept that particular definition and all else makes a lot more sense. Try and break it down into assorted sub-groupings and then try to fit one biased and probably unworkable interpretation of what's being proposed is simply wrong.

[tractor]

If, after all this discussion, you have not realised that there are employers, employees and self-employed people in the workforce, it is pointless arguing any further.

What vehicle the 4.5 million use, be it Ltd Co, LLP, Sch D, SAR declaration of earned income, umbrella or whatever, they only work for themselves, hence they are self-employed. Accept that particular definition and all else makes a lot more sense. Try and break it down into assorted sub-groupings and then try to fit one biased and probably unworkable interpretation of what's being proposed is simply wrong.

Whether pointless or not, I doubt that will stop you.

We were talking about the umbrella users. They are only using umbrellas because employers are able to dip out of their responsibility to employ them. Most like to think they are self employed but their working practices more than anything belie that. Hence, they are forced to use umbrellas.

I am only surprised that all the care worker suppliers haven't realised that they can get away with it yet. That would probably swell the numbers in forced self employment greatly. Just wait until FLCs come to pass and the government start touting it as the new wonder of economics that will save the world. It won't take them all long to cotton on.

You really should grasp the idea that just because people have a different view to you does not mean they are imbeciles and don't understand the difference between employed, self-employed and employers. No one here believes that I am that stupid and however you try to paint it that way, you have failed. The difference between us is that I haven't staked my belief on an idea that has as much chance of working (for us) as the UK getting a Jedi Parliament after next year's GE.

I don't doubt it will work but the only winner will be the agencies and HMRC.

Anyway, I thought we had declared this a Malvolioitis free zone in order that Philip Ross can come in and defend his corner without wading through reams of trash?