IR35 again

[Dactylion]

anyone would think he was important

No there is not a hope in hell that anyone would think he is important.

Even Suity isn't that daft!

[darmstadt]

Watch out, Suity's from Luton: Luton brawl 'involving 20 members of the same family' leads to arrests | Mail Online

[d000hg]

And now how about being forced to complete a form called "annual leave request" and on the form there is a field for "line manager" and a field for his/her boss.

They then approve or reject the request and you get an email.

You have to do this. Just like the employees.

It's not really any more D&C than having to log your time in the same timesheets as the permies though, is it?

The fact the paperwork says "line manager" just means use whoever you report to. For many the person who signs the timesheets each week is effectively the line manager.

[Zero Liability]

What powers? Link to documentary proof please as otherwise I will trust what I witnessed first hand...

Also curious, as my understanding is the same as eek's.

Regarding the "increase" in IR35 inquiries, I believe this refers to the jump to c. 250 or so in 2012/13, relative to years of low numbers of inquiries. It's still an exceedingly small sample, and CW has a habit of bringing this up, I would think largely because of its association with purveyors of IR35 insurance. Not slating the product, as I hold such a policy myself, but it helps to put into context what this "increase" is and why it is brought up so often on there. HMRC will also be looking into contractors in high positions with the NHS, c. 80 or so I believe, so this will again push up figures. I can't imagine the figure dropping much in the future, due to the amount of pressure on HMRC, however I can't see it going up much either, particularly if the Tories do win the next election and begin work on merging NI and PAYE, as its cost-efficiency is known to be abysmal.

[tractor]

...

It's not really any more D&C than having to log your time in the same timesheets as the permies though, is it?

The fact the paperwork says "line manager" just means use whoever you report to. For many the person who signs the timesheets each week is effectively the line manager.

I have been mirthfully watching the drip, drip of this thread and wondered how long it would be before someone got it. Well done, D000hg! 'Report' is one way and cannot alone be D & C.

Also, I struggle to see what filling in a form to confirm your notification of planned absence is to do with D & C. The conversation would go like this....

Me: Hey, PM, I've looked at the project plan and we're pretty slack around August, I'm unavailable for 3 weeks, OK?
PM: OK, My Lord, please confirm it in the leave system would you?

or alternatively...

PM: Piss off we've got stuff coming up, we will be too busy.

At which point I would either...

1. Cancel my plan and not put anything in the system or...
2. Not cancel my plan and say that I am unavailable do they want a substitute.

At no point would I need to confirm anything in the leave system unless they had already accepted my lack of availability, which would of course be documented as part of my anti-IR35 file.

Nothing in those potential chains of events have anything to do with D & C, they clearly touch on MoO and substitution though which is not mentioned in the OP. They could possibly fall under 'part & parcel' but only as a single factor amongst many possible factors.

Plus, the article linked which started all this up does not even hint that the locum in question was investigated under IR35!!! It is merely tenuously linked to it by some random commentator who offers it as some kind of retribution offering that they have just discovered in a laboratory!! When in reality, we, esp old PCG members have known and been discussing it as the 'nuclear option' for OVER 14 YEARS

[eek]

It's not really any more D&C than having to log your time in the same timesheets as the permies though, is it?

The fact the paperwork says "line manager" just means use whoever you report to. For many the person who signs the timesheets each week is effectively the line manager.

The one thing I think it really points out is that everything within IR35 is based on people's moods, how they describe things and how they interpret them.

I see a resource management system (probably SAP) with typical permie staff fields that wouldn't impact polite contractors... Suity sees direction and control and describes it like that to his "IR35 lawyer".

I'm willing to bet decent money that if I described the exact same system and process to the same lawyer that he wouldn't see any problem with it...

[Zero Liability]

they clearly touch on MoO and substitution though which is not mentioned in the OP. They could possibly fall under 'part & parcel' but only as a single factor amongst many possible factors.

Would it have a bearing on MoO, though? IR35 consultants seem to lump holiday approvals and the like under D&C, as MoO doesn't mean you can just refuse to turn up and leave the client hanging, but rather that if they have no work to offer, you're not obliged to accept any further assignments from them, or anything beyond the term of your contract. It also seems untested whether this only applies between contracts, or during engagements as well. I guess obviously it would impact the ROS if they didn't acknowledge such a right at all. The situation suity mentions doesn't even seem to constitute a case of D&C, so much as what a form used for client planning says.

[tractor]

...

Would it have a bearing on MoO, though? IR35 consultants seem to lump holiday approvals and the like under D&C, as MoO doesn't mean you can just refuse to turn up and leave the client hanging, but rather that if they have no work to offer, you're not obliged to accept any further assignments from them. It also seems untested whether this only applies between contracts, or during engagements as well. I guess obviously it would impact the ROS if they didn't acknowledge such a right at all. The situation suity mentions doesn't even seem to constitute a case of D&C, so much as what a form says.

Exactly, much of IR35 legislation remains untested simply because HMRC would rather walk away from a case than get a losing ruling which then turns into a silver bullet. This is why so much of the red tape is so insidious and generates a whole industry around it. Imagine how much more money there would be in it if clients, agents and we didn't need so many lawyers and insurances and reviews?

I see what you are saying, but it is further affected by the contract which may or may not make mention of absence/sickness arrangements etc. If e.g. there is no notice clause for either party, you are entitled to not turn up at any time and the client is entitled to turn you away at any time.

[xoggoth]

Woo.

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[xoggoth]

Thank F* I'm retired for over 6 years. Up yours HMRC!

Woo.

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