Hays contract: PSCToASR_02-12

[TheFaQQer]

If HMRC decide to pursue you they will almost certainly win unless you have a very large stache to fight them with

I shaved my very large 'stache off after the end of Movember.

[TheFaQQer]

In all my years I have never met a single contractor who had a skirmish with ir 35

I know two or three. One was ruled to be inside after a struggle.

the advice I had form very senior accountant was that none of the measures such as decribed here remove you from ir 35 or even necessarily help.

An accountant with how much legal experience exactly?

If HMRC decide to pursue you they will almost certainly win unless you have a very large stache to fight them with and are willing to loose it. If they dont you have no problem anyhow so stop fretting

Tosh. Decent legal representation is what you need, which comes with PCG membership and / or other insurance policies which can be had for not very much.

Every contract is an agreement between 2 entities.

Two is the minimum number of parties involved. Not every contract only involves two parties.

[quackhandle]

I shaved my very large 'stache off after the end of Movember.

qh

[bobspud]

Edt,
I may have been unlucky but I know of three contractors that got seriously shafted by ir35. Two of them was at the same company and were successfully defended by the PCG (although one was caught for £3k ) the other had his life ruined for 2 years and a shed load of accountancy fees. Before HMRC got pissey and gave up because the end client stopped responding to them. But he had set a solicitor on an employee of the client for speaking out of turn either way it cost him several months of worry and costs. If you sign a contract that's inside it35 do you think the insurance will still protect you?

[qbe]

PSCToASR/01-12

Hi All,

I have given this (PSCToASR/01-12) by HAYS, items: 3.2 , 3.5 and 6.2 are exactly like what OP mentioned. I have not done contracting before and am a first timer, now I am completely overwhelmed and scared by all these, and don't know whether I should sign it and take PCG+ and pretend I'm outside IR35 and everything is gonna be alright, or should I volunteer to be inside IR35, Or should I stay in my current perm position with my current employer. I need to hand my notice by Monday, if I want to leave, so that leaves me with no time for getting my contract reviewed.
the job is software development for an Investment bank and I might be working alongside permies with the same job.

The other thing is : Duration of my contract is mentioned in my contract, is that a bad thing as far as IR35 is concerned?

please help I am getting really desperate
Thanks

[cojak]

Hi All,

I have given this (PSCToASR/01-12) by HAYS, items: 3.2 , 3.5 and 6.2 are exactly like what OP mentioned. I have not done contracting before and am a first timer, now I am completely overwhelmed and scared by all these, and don't know whether I should sign it and take PCG+ and pretend I'm outside IR35 and everything is gonna be alright, or should I volunteer to be inside IR35, Or should I stay in my current perm position with my current employer. I need to hand my notice by Monday, if I want to leave, so that leaves me with no time for getting my contract reviewed.
the job is software development for an Investment bank and I might be working alongside permies with the same job.

The other thing is : Duration of my contract is mentioned in my contract, is that a bad thing as far as IR35 is concerned?

please help I am getting really desperate
Thanks

Have you looked at this? http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...r_02-12-a.html

Also take a look at the first timer guide on the right as having an end date is exactly what you would expect to see.

Ultimately the decision to a accept or reject it is up to you and how you view the risk against how much you need the contract.

Edit: ah, I've just realised that you posted in the wrong thread, I've moved it now...

[jamesbrown]

Hi All,

I have given this (PSCToASR/01-12) by HAYS, items: 3.2 , 3.5 and 6.2 are exactly like what OP mentioned. I have not done contracting before and am a first timer, now I am completely overwhelmed and scared by all these, and don't know whether I should sign it and take PCG+ and pretend I'm outside IR35 and everything is gonna be alright, or should I volunteer to be inside IR35, Or should I stay in my current perm position with my current employer. I need to hand my notice by Monday, if I want to leave, so that leaves me with no time for getting my contract reviewed.
the job is software development for an Investment bank and I might be working alongside permies with the same job.

The other thing is : Duration of my contract is mentioned in my contract, is that a bad thing as far as IR35 is concerned?

please help I am getting really desperate
Thanks

Perhaps the reason you're overwhelmed is that you're rushing into something without knowing the basics? You shouldn't base the decision to start a business on a single contract being available, although it certainly might influence the timing. Do you want to contract? If so, start reading about contracting and all that entails, and then reflect on whether you still want in. Don't rush into something on the basis of a single contract, as that could disappear just as quickly as it appeared. Then what? There's plenty of reading available over on the right to get you started, including on IR35, which is really incidental to any decision to start contracting.

No, you'd expect to see a fixed duration and project defined (afterall, you're there for a specific task), but the actual duration is not a pointer otherwise.

[qbe]

caught by IR35?

In the calculator part of the website it says if you are caught by IR35 your income would be decreased by x amount. What does it mean? Do people voluntarily advise their accountant they are inside IR35 ? Otherwise Isnt it that if they are caught there would be tens of thousands of pounds tax and fine etc.

My contract rate seems too good to be missed. I don't want to miss it over a worry that perhaps most people easily deal with by buying an insurance or PCG+ cover or similar.
What are my options if people say Hays doesn't change the contract?

Thanks

[jamesbrown]

In the calculator part of the website it says if you are caught by IR35 your income would be decreased by x amount. What does it mean? Do people voluntarily advise their accountant they are inside IR35 ? Otherwise Isnt it that if they are caught there would be tens of thousands of pounds tax and fine etc.

My contract rate seems too good to be missed. I don't want to miss it over a worry that perhaps most people easily deal with by buying an insurance or PCG+ cover or similar.
What are my options if people say Hays doesn't change the contract?

Thanks

Sure, if a contract is inside (it applies to each contract), you advise your accountant accordingly or you operate through an umbrella company (you are then employed under a PAYE arrangement). Given your lack of experience, you might consider an umbrella to begin with, although a Ltd is generally more cost efficient, even when only operating contracts that fall inside. What you shouldn't do is fail to undertake the due diligence or ignore the advice given about your contract and/or working practices, i.e. "pretend" that a contract falls outside. No amount of insurance will help you under those circumstances. Remember, that the contract is just a prerequisite, and the reality of the situation, dictated by the working practices, is what really matters, for which there are three key factors (RoS, MOO and D&C, of which you must clearly demonstrate at least one), alongside many other secondary pointers, which can be collectively important in building a picture.

As I said though, IR35 is totally incidental to deciding whether you want to run a business. And also remember that, once you've quit your job, there's no guarantee that you will actually get this contract. Are they really going to wait while you work your notice period?

[mudskipper]

I don't want to miss it over a worry that perhaps most people easily deal with by buying an insurance or PCG+ cover or similar.

Thanks

I think this is right. The contract is just one part of IR35 - working practices are more important than what the contract says. Some 'jobs' are clearly inside, but for many it's a grey area. Awareness of IR35, attempts to ensure contracts and working practices fall outside, and insurance are where most of us are.

Relatively few people get investigated, but if you are one of the few then it can be a stressful and expensive time.

After all, if we were all so confident that we were 100% outside, there would be no need for insurance.