Agent needing to see passport when they have already seen scans

[Gentile]

I didn't say that, and you know it

What I'm saying is, you can't negate the 'control' element the client may think they excercise over you by saying 'You cannot control me' every day to your hiring manager. So, in terms of working practices, lets take control as an example, how do you go about, in practical terms, ensuring that the client does not control what you do and ensuring that HR know that 'you cannot be controlled' ?

In a lot of posts, you tell people to ensure that their working practices are correct. All I'm asking for is one practical example of how you do this

• Only discuss desired outcomes with your Client, not methods of achieving those outcomes, except in the context of mentoring their staff. Never take direction on how to do what you do, only on what result you are expected to achieve.
  
  
• Never, ever appear on a Client's organogram. And never let them give you a 'job title' other than "supplier" or "contractor". You're not there to be their VP Codswallop, Director of Naval-Gazing or Leader of Anything. Your company is there to get a specific fixed-scope job done.
  
  
• Never appear on a company telephone list. Give them your mobile phone number if they want to contact you. And if there's a telephone on the desk you're allowed to use on site, don't answer it: it's not your number any more than it's your desk.
  
  
• Never fill in "holiday request" or "sickness absence" form. Even if a misguided HR bod asks you to. Unless they want to offer you holiday and sick pay to go with them, in which case enquire about your pension and PAYE contributions too.
  
  
• If they wont allow you to use your own equipment, don't allow them to use your expertise.

HTH

[TestMangler]

• Only discuss desired outcomes with your Client, not methods of achieving those outcomes, except in the context of mentoring their staff. Never take direction on how to do what you do, only on what result you are expected to achieve.
  
  
• Never, ever appear on a Client's organogram. And never let them give you a 'job title' other than "supplier" or "contractor". You're not there to be their VP Codswallop, Director of Naval-Gazing or Leader of Anything. Your company is there to get a specific fixed-scope job done.
  
  
• Never appear on a company telephone list. Give them your mobile phone number if they want to contact you. And if there's a telephone on the desk you're allowed to use on site, don't answer it: it's not your number any more than it's your desk.
  
  
• Never fill in "holiday request" or "sickness absence" form. Even if a misguided HR bod asks you to. Unless they want to offer you holiday and sick pay to go with them, in which case enquire about your pension and PAYE contributions too.
  
  
• If they wont allow you to use your own equipment, don't allow them to use your expertise.

HTH

And you're currently out of contract, aren't you ? And have a short contracting career, broken with permiedom. Thanks for the advice.

So, do you actually believe that the above would save you in an IR35 investigation ? Do you think if HMRC went to your last client (unless they are an SME) and asked their particular set of loaded questions, your refusal to appear in an org chart or a telephone directory would put you outside IR35 ?

I'm guessing that you would refuse to use a client email system too but, hypothetically, if you did, your email sig would be 'Rachel Gentile, Contractor' ?

I might be wrong, but I suspect you're talking utter bollocks on most of the above points, either that or you've only ever contracted for Client Co's with less than 20 employees.

[TestMangler]

And I'm totally lost... is it not possible to post some basic fundamentals re avoiding IR35 investigation? I came across a quetionaire once that gave you points for marketing, having other people work in the same LTD company as yourself etc.. the higher the points the less chances there were of an investigation. However, I misplaced the paper and cannot recall the entire contents or origin!

Is that aimed at me or NLUK ?

If it is at me, I know how to stay outside IR35. I've been there, done that and got the T shirt.

I asked NLUK to give me a practical example of these 'working practices' that he continually quotes to others. So far, i've seen nothing constructive.

[Gentile]

And you're currently out of contract, aren't you ? And have a short contracting career, broken with permiedom. Thanks for the advice.

So, do you actually believe that the above would save you in an IR35 investigation ? Do you think if HMRC went to your last client (unless they are an SME) and asked their particular set of loaded questions, your refusal to appear in an org chart or a telephone directory would put you outside IR35 ?

I'm guessing that you would refuse to use a client email system too but, hypothetically, if you did, your email sig would be 'Rachel Gentile, Contractor' ?

I might be wrong, but I suspect you're talking utter bollocks on most of the above points, either that or you've only ever contracted for Client Co's with less than 20 employees.

Nope. I landed a client with £1.5M in the bank of their European subsidiary, and 1,200 employees worldwide today. But never mind, you'll get me next time.

[TestMangler]

Nope. I landed a client with £1.5M in the bank of their European subsidiary, and 1,200 employees worldwide today. But never mind, you'll get me next time.

Hardly a big client, is it ? But congrats on getting off the bench.

So, all the rules you stated above, you're going to apply them to this new client, in no uncertain terms ? If HMRC were to investigate you and ask for additional information from your client (probably without your knowledge), they'd all jump up and say that you can't be controlled and you are in no way interconnected with their organisation ? And all that will happen because you've 'followed the correct working practices' ?

[Old Greg]

And you're currently out of contract, aren't you ? And have a short contracting career, broken with permiedom. Thanks for the advice.

So, do you actually believe that the above would save you in an IR35 investigation ? Do you think if HMRC went to your last client (unless they are an SME) and asked their particular set of loaded questions, your refusal to appear in an org chart or a telephone directory would put you outside IR35 ?

I'm guessing that you would refuse to use a client email system too but, hypothetically, if you did, your email sig would be 'Rachel Gentile, Contractor' ?

I might be wrong, but I suspect you're talking utter bollocks on most of the above points, either that or you've only ever contracted for Client Co's with less than 20 employees.

I have some sympathy with Gentile. I don't think it's critical for IR35 but it is helpful from a mindset point of view.

[TestMangler]

I have some sympathy with Gentile. I don't think it's critical for IR35 but it is helpful from a mindset point of view.

PING !! Thank you OG for being the one to finally see the point that I made about ten ******' posts ago.

There are posters on here who continually tell people that contracts don't count and you have to have the correct working practices in place. So far, no one has been able to give a real world, practical example of doing that, including Gentile's fantasy bulltulip above.

So, in that case, I agree with you. It's not critical for IR35 and is ONLY helpful from a mindset point of view and anyone who claims that they can force their unwritten working practices onto a client is a fantasist in the extreme.

[Gentile]

Hardly a big client, is it ? But congrats on getting off the bench.

So, all the rules you stated above, you're going to apply them to this new client, in no uncertain terms ? If HMRC were to investigate you and ask for additional information from your client (probably without your knowledge), they'd all jump up and say that you can't be controlled and you are in no way interconnected with their organisation ? And all that will happen because you've 'followed the correct working practices' ?

I'd say £190M in sales, and £1.5M in funds in the bank is a plenty big/stable enough client for me. And we're talking about actual profits from a successful business here, not just the taxpayer bailout funds that keep the banking sector afloat.

However, something tells me you're looking for yet another pointless argument with strangers on the internet for no good reason though, TM, so I'll leave you to it. Is it all that hunting for errors in other people's code that makes you such a doomsayer? Anyway, I hope you enjoy your diatribe!

[Old Greg]

PING !! Thank you OG for being the one to finally see the point that I made about ten ******' posts ago.

There are posters on here who continually tell people that contracts don't count and you have to have the correct working practices in place. So far, no one has been able to give a real world, practical example of doing that, including Gentile's fantasy bulltulip above.

So, in that case, I agree with you. It's not critical for IR35 and is ONLY helpful from a mindset point of view and anyone who claims that they can force their unwritten working practices onto a client is a fantasist in the extreme.

10 posts back? Who bothers reading that far back? Much better just to pitch right in.

I always assumed that working practices are important when HMRC is challenging your contract (RoS as a sham etc.) but that this doesn't apply the other way round.

But maybe I was making an ass out of u and umption.

[TestMangler]

I'd say £190M in sales, and £1.5M in funds in the bank is a plenty big/stable enough client for me. And we're talking about actual profits from a successful business here, not just the taxpayer bailout funds that keep the banking sector afloat.

However, something tells me you're looking for yet another pointless argument with strangers on the internet for no good reason though, TM, so I'll leave you to it. Is it all that hunting for errors in other people's code that makes you such a doomsayer? Anyway, I hope you enjoy your diatribe!

No, I'm not looking for a pointless arguement, but seeing as you put it that way:

1. The original discussion was between me and NLUK about his continual advice about working practices. I asked him to post an example of what he actually does or means by this. So far none is forthcoming. Is leaving poor and unhelpful advice unchallenged they way forward ?

2. You posted some of the things that you claim to do, which, I'd bet my bollocks you don't actually do in response to my request for real life, practical examples and I called you out on it. You know fine well that you're talking tulip and your answer to that is to accuse me of being argumentitive ? LOL, ok dear, best go put the kettle on.

3. I don't pick holes in peoples code. I watch other people do it and steal the credit.