Ask the agent. The Good, the bad and the ugly

[d000hg]

OK, but the thing with rolling contracts that follow the usual agency-led model is that Hector sees them as classic IR35 fodder. Hence a proper B2B contract for the supply of services gets around that minor problem...

Hmm, I'd think HMRC will happily take a proper B2B contract and still (sometimes justifiably) say you're not really acting as a business. The issue that 1-man-contractor-Ltds are a grey area between permiedom and self employment and proper businesses doesn't go away no matter how you word a contract.

Also "This contract terminates immediately on successful delivery of the objective or on nth Julember, whichever comes first." would be a useful clause. Nothing to say you can't then negotiate a continuation if the work to date warrants it, is there...?

No argument with that.

[centurian]

or by honing the skill of rapidly scanning the invoice sitting on the clients desk .

Amazing what information you can glean from a piece of paper upside down, 4 feet away - with about 50 milliseconds of focus time as your eyes move from talking from one person to the other. We should be working for MI5.

[centurian]

Cost - the real myth. Last gig I charged them around £60k and saved them around £480k. So what's the relevance of the day rate?

Simples. If someone else could have done it for £40K and only saved £475K, then you've cost them £15K. You're a bad deal.

With today's agressive bean counting, even a function that "saves money" can still be heavily maximised. They tend to start from an ideal case scenario and work it from there - i.e. assume that the £480K could be saved for virtually no expenditure - whatever they have to spend is therefore a cost which they want to reduce.

[malvolio]

Simples. If someone else could have done it for £40K and only saved £475K, then you've cost them £15K. You're a bad deal.

With today's agressive bean counting, even a function that "saves money" can still be heavily maximised. They tend to start from an ideal case scenario and work it from there - i.e. assume that the £480K could be saved for virtually no expenditure - whatever they have to spend is therefore a cost which they want to reduce.

Except (a) they didn't know I could save then that amount and (b) who's to say that someone charging 30% less than an already under-market rate would have the experience to find the saving and make it happen? The job was not to save money but to run a department and make it more effective in delivering work. The savings made will be recycled into other areas, including filling a post that they previously couldn't afford.

Of course someone could have done the same for less, but take that to the extreme and clients should take on someone on NMW to do everything regardless of ability and we should all be driving G-Wiz's or riding 10 year old push bikes.

[Pogle]

Amazing what information you can glean from a piece of paper upside down, 4 feet away - with about 50 milliseconds of focus time as your eyes move from talking from one person to the other. We should be working for MI5.

Its a skill all women are born with

[Spacecadet]

Why do so many agents insist on using the term "market rate" in the job ads when it would be very simple for them to put that actual market rate in the advert.
It's not as if rates swing by 20% on a day to day basis

[d000hg]

Why do so many agents insist on using the term "market rate" in the job ads when it would be very simple for them to put that actual market rate in the advert.
It's not as if rates swing by 20% on a day to day basis

Good question. And in fact since TAV has previously said clients normally stipulate their budget up-front with little room for movement, doubly so.

[The Agents View]

Good question. And in fact since TAV has previously said clients normally stipulate their budget up-front with little room for movement, doubly so.

Agreed. I have to step back here and say that I have absolutely no idea. This kind of thing makes no sense to me. I can speculate, but that's not going to do any good. I have to say I've never done anything but stipulate a rate range - but I sometimes to go out to market with £30,£40 or £50 less than I actually have - this is my slack if you like - It means that I can be negotiated with - and if people don't negotiate, then I can knock some money out for the end client - hence meaning I can pull together a value based sales pitch to compliment - hence giving me a better chance of winning the business.

Perhaps other people have different arrangements with clients, or are working on team bids - therefore need to "check out" what's available for what price. Ultimately, MY personal market rate is £10,000,000 per year - but trying to dictate that to an agent or client is pointless really, so if I look at things from the perspective of how I'd like to be treated - I'd want to gauge the rate range before applying!

[Saddo]

The agent is acting for clientco (and their own self interest). Never are they ever acting in the interests of the contractor, unless it coincides with the interests of the other two parties.

This guy knows what he is talking about. Some agents are better than others at sounding like they are doing something for your benefit, but they never will be. They have targets to meet, on which their personal rewards are based, and the only show in town for any agent is how much commission they can book. This is no different to any other sales process.

From my point of view, I don't have a problem with an agent getting a commission. But what I do object to is when that commission is very high. 15% on top of my rate I can live with, even though it represents a very good margin for the agent and well beyond what they need to cover their costs. But 25% and above? I might as well employ the guy in my own Ltd company and let him work 50% of the time.

[Saddo]

Why do so many agents insist on using the term "market rate" in the job ads when it would be very simple for them to put that actual market rate in the advert.
It's not as if rates swing by 20% on a day to day basis

It means the agent has been given a budget by the ClientCo - which is probably market rate. But the agent doesn't want to tell you what that is because the more they can take of that rate the better.

Viz: ClientCo might have budgeted £350/day - not too bad as a market rate. Contractor wants £325 of that - perfectly reasonable. But agent can get another contractor for £300. Which one is the agent going to push at the client?

I wish government would pass a law which stipulated that the lower contract between agent and contractor should include a definition of the markup which the agent is using. But normally that's a closely guarded secret which you don't have sight of (until you arrive on site and get insider information, by which time it's too late).