The Times picks up on Migrant IT Workers

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

Well the projections in the links I posted are that it won't. So, much as I would like you to be right I can't see it unfortunately.

Forget what the market says (like we discussed, they don't know their heads from their asses), where is the bit that you don't agree with in my reasoning?

The market has done the same thing 7 years ago and we're still alive and kicking, what has changed? They didn't become any better, IT is even more critical, I really can't see a reason for their renewed optimism.

[kingshuk]

Yes it will. Stuff is being delivered because we're there to pick their crap up when it drops.

If we weren't there, stuff would never get through UAT.

You are sounding a bit like John Galt

I agree with some of what you say. However it is still cheaper to run a large team in India and a smallish team in UK to get things done. Instead of a full team in UK.

In my various places of work some of the stuff s we got here were not quite right. But many were just about okay. So there was always a last minute scramble before UAT but it was still cheaper and working as long as there were a few people locally to patch things up when things went bad.

I think most managements (maybe not board level but the actual project managers) understand this. But the local tech bods don't - they consider themselves indispensable. They are not really - the roles are (i,e companies will need small number of local tech bods) but not the individuals.

So yes there will be more outsourcing and demand for IT staffs here may reduce as a consequence. So rates for those small number of local bods will reduce. Things will still run, UK Plc will survive

[oracleslave]

Forget what the market says (like we discussed, they don't know their heads from their asses), where is the bit that you don't agree with in my reasoning?

The market has done the same thing 7 years ago and we're still alive and kicking, what has changed? They didn't become any better, IT is even more critical, I really can't see a reason for their renewed optimism.

In short:

Whilst you might still be alive and kicking thousands aren't. I can see a market for folk such as yourself who from what you described seem to be performing a quality/safety net type role in order to get things delivered. I don't think there are enough of those types of roles going around and I also don't think many that have been displaced are able to make the switch to managing outsourced/offshore teams. In other words there is a whole base-layer of staff jobs that have gone and I don't believe they are ever coming back again.

Upskilling can help to some degree but there is a ceiling to that approach too. The outsourcers are upskilling all the time and I think they are catching up.

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

So yes there will be more outsourcing and demand for IT staffs here may reduce as a consequence. So rates for those small number of local bods will reduce. Things will still run, UK Plc will survive

The myth is that there's a real need for code-donkeys in a project, as if there was any physical work involved in crafting a piece of software. There isn't , they are simply slack. We spend much more time reviewing, re-reviewing and re-re-reviewing their code than it would take us to write it ourselves, we're simply banned from doing so.

Management believes in this, even bad developers do. They are simply not needed. If you can't find brilliant developers to do your job (wherever they may be), unless you want to build something very simple, don't even start.

For "Hello World" style webpages, which are running for a fixed period of time, or which will never require any further development, by all means, go to India.

[kingshuk]

In short:

Whilst you might still be alive and kicking thousands aren't. I can see a market for folk such as yourself who from what you described seem to be performing a quality/safety net type role in order to get things delivered. I don't think there are enough of those types of roles going around and I also don't think many that have been displaced are able to make the switch to managing outsourced/offshore teams. In other words there is a whole base-layer of staff jobs that have gone and I don't believe they are ever coming back again.

Upskilling can help to some degree but there is a ceiling to that approach too. The outsourcers are upskilling all the time and I think they are catching up.

Can't agree more

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

Upskilling can help to some degree but there is a ceiling to that approach too. The outsourcers are upskilling all the time and I think they are catching up.

Are you saying they seem to be more competent than they were 7 years ago, when the first wave hit?

[oracleslave]

Are you saying they seem to be more competent than they were 7 years ago, when the first wave hit?

Overall, yes. They are also more ubiquitous, i.e. there are fewer niche areas available to us. For example let's assume there is a hierarchy to IT folk such as the following random example.

Support
Junior Developer
Senior Developer
Architect
BI Consultant
Strategy Consultant

In the past I could see loads of niche areas within these roles that they were far less prevalent in. The first wave you referred to tended to be more support and developer related and there were very few good offshore BI consultants or architects for example. That is no longer the case imo.


I still see some niches available, particularly within specific sectors but I think it is ever diminishing.

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

Overall, yes. They are also more ubiquitous, i.e. there are fewer niche areas available to us. For example let's assume there is a hierarchy to IT folk such as the following random example.

Support
Junior Developer
Senior Developer
Architect
BI Consultant
Strategy Consultant

In the past I could see loads of niche areas within these roles that they were far less prevalent in. The first wave you referred to tended to be more support and developer related and there were very few good offshore BI consultants or architects for example. That is no longer the case imo.


I still see some niches available, particularly within specific sectors but I think it is ever diminishing.

I still think that if the ICT loophole was closed, it would be back to business as usual for most IT bods here, in the UK.

If I'm wrong, I'll just become a carpenter or a plasterer, I don't really expect my current good fortune to last till the end of my life.

[Incognito]

You should be driving out the Scots, too. They are also Jocks-Come-Lately.

Jocks-come-lately? What the hell are you talking about man. Scotland was formed out of the combination of the Pictish and Gaelic lands to drive out the Norse. Scots are Celts you fool, Alba is a Celtic word.

[Diver]

Jocks-come-lately? What the hell are you talking about man. Scotland was formed out of the combination of the Pictish and Gaelic lands to drive out the Norse. Scots are Celts you fool, Alba is a Celtic word.

You tell the immigrant upstarts

Diolch i ti ffrind