The Times picks up on Migrant IT Workers

[Diver]

And what about Offa's Dyke?

She's had the full sex change now

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

Why? Can't they see through this? Don't they have managers who think as clearly as most CUK forum users? Are ALL the FTSE 100 company managers incompetent, short sighted, cynical or corrupt.

No, it's because they are managers and managers are short on information. When I tell my manager that they've done this and that (you wouldn't believe the sort of stuff they're capable of) he listens to me than listens to the one in India, and says 1-1. He doesn't know, he's not a developer.

We had long discussions on how they could be improved. We offered to send me there for 6 months to teach them basic programming stuff, but they declined, since they have to keep up the pretence of being good enough to do something on their own.

In my frustration I once offered to leave my contract for the next 6 months, demonstrate to everyone what will happen if India was to be let to play on it's own with a new project, then come back to pick up the pieces, but business is scared tulipless of the idea, so they declined.

It's not corruption, but yes, it is incompetence. So far, every penny we've spent on India was wasted and it will remain so, since there can be no resolution either way. The good ones (well, mediocre ones by my standards, but still) are offered roles in the west, they don't want to be our code-monkeys there if they can be respected developers here.

It's not going to work now the same way it hasn't worked 7 years ago and they will realise it sooner or later again.

[oracleslave]

It's not corruption, but yes, it is incompetence. So far, every penny we've spent on India was wasted and it will remain so, since there can be no resolution either way. The good ones (well, mediocre ones by my standards, but still) are offered roles in the west, they don't want to be our code-monkeys there if they can be respected developers here.

It's not going to work now the same way it hasn't worked 7 years ago and they will realise it sooner or later again.

Explain this then.

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing...hows-recession

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...-Equaterra.htm

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

Explain this then.

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing...hows-recession

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...-Equaterra.htm

Are you one of those "efficient market" people?

[oracleslave]

Are you one of those "efficient market" people?

You'll have to phrase that question differently as in its current format I am unsure how to answer it most efficiently.

Now, your turn to answer my original question.

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

You'll have to phrase that question differently as in its current format I am unsure how to answer it most efficiently.

Now, your turn to answer my original question.

I don't think management at my client (or, the ones behind the data on your links) is stupid. I think they see 3 things:

• India is cheap
• There are 2 teams
• Stuff is getting delivered

When we tell them what we have to go through to get India's tulip patched up at the very last minute so that it will work on release-date, they shrug and put it off as us being scared for our contracts.

Again, I'd love to give them the opportunity to show just how incompetent our Indian brethren are. Business knows they would have to go through the hell they had before we arrived, so they're fighting tooth and nail to keep us, but that will run out shortly, on account of these decisions being made by people in boardrooms who have never seen technology up close.

Same thing happened in 2001-2002, nothing has changed since then.

Funny thing is, those people actually believe that they are amazing and capable, just that we're keeping them down. Management, coders, everyone. They actually have faith in their incredibly tulipty abilities. I used to be like them 7 years ago, but I didn't have 6 years of experience at the time like these people do. The ones at my client are our best bet to show how valuable we really are.

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

You'll have to phrase that question differently as in its current format I am unsure how to answer it most efficiently.

Now, your turn to answer my original question.

Sorry, this has become a bit too long.

I'll sum it up:

Management wants to believe, so they will believe, no matter what the facts are, especially since those can only be presented by someone for/against.

[oracleslave]

I don't think management at my client (or, the ones behind the data on your links) is stupid. I think they see 3 things:

• India is cheap
• There are 2 teams
• Stuff is getting delivered

When we tell them what we have to go through to get India's tulip patched up at the very last minute so that it will work on release-date, they shrug and put it off as us being scared for our contracts.

Again, I'd love to give them the opportunity to show just how incompetent our Indian brethren are. Business knows they would have to go through the hell they had before we arrived, so they're fighting tooth and nail to keep us, but that will run out shortly, on account of these decisions being made by people in boardrooms who have never seen technology up close.

Same thing happened in 2001-2002, nothing has changed since then.

Funny thing is, those people actually believe that they are amazing and capable, just that we're keeping them down. Management, coders, everyone. They actually have faith in their incredibly tulipty abilities. I used to be like them 7 years ago, but I didn't have 6 years of experience at the time like these people do. The ones at my client are our best bet to show how valuable we really are.

Agree with pretty much all of what you have said here. The reason I asked the original question was due to this line of yours "It's not going to work now the same way it hasn't worked 7 years ago and they will realise it sooner or later again."

As you say here, from their (management, board etc) perspective it is working. Stuff is getting delivered and it's cheaper. Therefore I can't see the move towards outsourcing changing or even slowing down.

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

Agree with pretty much all of what you have said here. The reason I asked the original question was due to this line of yours "It's not going to work now the same way it hasn't worked 7 years ago and they will realise it sooner or later again."

As you say here, from their (management, board etc) perspective it is working. Stuff is getting delivered and it's cheaper. Therefore I can't see the move towards outsourcing changing or even slowing down.

Yes it will. Stuff is being delivered because we're there to pick their crap up when it drops.

If we weren't there, stuff would never get through UAT.

[oracleslave]

Yes it will. Stuff is being delivered because we're there to pick their crap up when it drops.

If we weren't there, stuff would never get through UAT.

Well the projections in the links I posted are that it won't. So, much as I would like you to be right I can't see it unfortunately.