How do I ask for **Open book?** (Urgent Help Requested)

[RichardCranium]

If you get selected for a role by Clientco, you have negotiation leverage with an agent. We should all be asking for transparency from the middle men, we didn't get into this business to make the pimps rich - but are willing to pay them a fair commission for their work in securing work. Sounds fair.

Spot on!

And if they won't perform, use another agent and be sure to tell the client why too.

[EddieNambulous]

I think everyone is just being horrible to you because your name sounds Indian.

Now steady on old chap...(tweaks handlebar moustache)...I don't think that's entirely fair.

My perception is that the issue is with the question being asked and the tone of it - and the one of a similar nature from a few months back - rather than the asker.

[pmeswani]

Okay - bit of context here.

This is a multi-agent scenario. The agent I am working with has only been successful with my application. The may be another person in the frame, but submitted via a different agent.

Context has nothing to do with it. If you have been offered the contract, and the rate, and you are not happy with what's been offered, either take it as it is, or leave it. Let someone who can afford to be on the rate you have been offered do the role.

Thus, its to the agent and my benefit to get an agreement and a contract signed asap. A little bit of leverage there to get the agent to play ball (bearing in mind that its a crappy market and other people could take it).

The agent won't work with you again if you start digging into their commission. They have to earn a crust too you know.

Anycase, I understand that contracts with noticed periods which are not reciprocal are not enforceable - they can put anything on the contract for non-termination on the contractors part - but if you leave - they can't enforce it? Is this the case?

The notice period is in the contract in order to make it a good IR35 pointer (Which I believe it has been pointed out already). If you leave and break your contract terms, you will be in breach of contract, and the client / agency may decide not to pay you, as you have failed to provide a service as per the T's & C's.

More importantly: can I put something in the contract to ask for renegotiation after a couple of months with the agent (without ending the contract)? I could get in with the client and then have more bargining power later - anyone done this - what do you ask for??

Have you asked the question to the agent? How are we going to know what the agency is going to agree too? We are not psychic's!!!

[shanti]

Have you asked the question to the agent? How are we going to know what the agency is going to agree too? We are not psychic's!!!

Well - have to know what to ask for. How would you ask for break in the contract - which would enable you to change the T&C's (and up the rate possibly), but not allow them or the client to refuse a renewal? Is that possible? Wouldn't that just have to be a 3 month rolling or is there something out you can ask for - and how would it be termed in the contract?

[RichardCranium]

Well - have to know what to ask for.

You just ask for what you want.

How would you ask for break in the contract - which would enable you to change the T&C's (and up the rate possibly), but not allow them or the client to refuse a renewal? Is that possible?

Of course it is possible. Just write down what you want and say you want it in the contract.

Wouldn't that just have to be a 3 month rolling or is there something out you can ask for - and how would it be termed in the contract?

Just write down what you want. The more clear you make it, the better. It really is that simple.

Unless you want to waste £500 per hour on lawyer's fees to get them to write something else for you!

[shanti]

Of course you can. You are perfectly entitled to do this.

There is indeed a form of negotiation where everything is done openly. It is used by organisations such as ACAS and peace negotiators. Recruitment agents are unlikely to be familiar with it so you just need to explain that is how you wish to do business with them. That's correct. That s essential for IR35; do not get that changed!

That would be immoral; no UK recruitment agent would ever do such a thing. They could be thrown out of REC or ATSCO and that would be the end of them. They would never risk that.

Moral standards of agencies are highly variable and trend downwards in a recession. In the event of a breach, REC for example, has a serious word with their fee-paying agencies which fund them - and may even offer some training. Whooaa... big stick (not).

Just tell them you need to be a signatory on the client contract. They will understand. Quite right too.

This is interesting.. how do you mean be a signatory? Does that mean you can "sign off" the clientco contract, or just see it? Is this some kind of arrangement where you get "full visibility" to the Clientco-to-Agent contract so you know that the terms: length of contract, termination, etc.. match your contract (bearing in mind IR35 issues) - and the agency markup is acceptable??


Do tell. Else the agent could be quietly re-negotiating your rate after 3 months on a 6 month contract with the Clientco and pocketing the increment (and you may never even know about it).

[DiscoStu]

This is interesting.. how do you mean be a signatory? Does that mean you can "sign off" the clientco contract, or just see it? Is this some kind of arrangement where you get "full visibility" to the Clientco-to-Agent contract so you know that the terms: length of contract, termination, etc.. match your contract (bearing in mind IR35 issues) - and the agency markup is acceptable??


Do tell. Else the agent could be quietly re-negotiating your rate after 3 months on a 6 month contract with the Clientco and pocketing the increment (and you may never even know about it).

I think you need to consult a dictionary and look up the word sarcasm

[RichardCranium]

This is interesting.. how do you mean be a signatory? Does that mean you can "sign off" the clientco contract, or just see it?

Yes, sign it off. Be one of the signatories. Get to read it and sign it.

Is this some kind of arrangement where you get "full visibility" to the Clientco-to-Agent contract so you know that the terms: length of contract, termination, etc.. match your contract (bearing in mind IR35 issues) - and the agency markup is acceptable??

Yes. You read it, if you are not happy you negotiate, if you are happy you sign it.

It is very common in business-to-business arrangements.

Do tell. Else the agent could be quietly re-negotiating your rate after 3 months on a 6 month contract with the Clientco and pocketing the increment (and you may never even know about it).

Indeed. That is why you need to demand to be a signatory on the client / agency contract. And if they don't like it, tell them you will use a reputable agency instead.

[DiscoStu]

Dude, you can't go in and ask for 800 per day when the agent is not able to bill for that amount?

You have to see how the agent is making his money (i.e. his terms of business with the Clientco).

If the agent is just making a commission (and there are other ways) - then its just about what the Clientco is willing to pay - and the agent will get his margin.

If the agent is getting a flat fee, i.e. 500 per day for get resource in - and its up to him how cheap/expensive he can find someone, then the contractor should give him a fair 8-25% margin and the take the rest if that is an acceptable remaining amount.

Point is, you don't know how to be fair to an agent - until they are prepared to be transparent.

Transparency is the key... didn't we learn anything for the Parliment's Expenses scandal???

I've been back and re-read this thread and it just makes less and less sense to me.

When you go shopping do you ask how much each item cost the shop to buy and what their mark-up is? Of course you don't, because they'd tell you to get stuffed.

What on earth makes you think an agent is going to reveal their margin? In addition to the fact that it's highly likely to be covered by a confidentiality agreement, it's commercially sensitive information. An agency will most likely fight tooth and nail to prevent their margin being publicly disclosed to avoid being undercut - the chances of it being revealed intentionally to a contractor is very very slim.

It's quite simple, if you're happy with the rate then you take it, if you're not happy with the rate then you decline it. All you're going to do is piss the agency off and then find the role being mysteriously filled by someone else.

[RichardCranium]

All you're going to do is piss the agency off and then find the role being mysteriously filled by someone else.

That is indeed the most likely outcome, but the OP would learn something from it. And we'd get an evil giggle.