How do I ask for **Open book?** (Urgent Help Requested)

[shanti]

Thanks..

True, but not at the expense of contract clauses they do not like, possibly such as this one for the reason you state (getting in and getting more leverage - that is what renewal time is for, and even then you might not get what you ask for).



Renegotiation such as:

Shanti - can I have more money?

Agent - No.

Shanti - that's not fair.

Agent - We only had an agreement for renegotiation, not that we would actually agree to the demands you made when the contract was signed initially, and that we rejected

Shanti - you are being unfair.

Agent - how exactly, are we being unfair?

etc...

Good point.

To me, a 6 months contract means nothing, particularly if there is a 1 day noticed period for the agency (plenty of agents will talk of 6months contract knowing the work is not there). The only benefit of a 6 months contract is that the agent benefits from holding down the contractor's rate for 6 months. If people do not want you - you will be walking irrespective of the renewal date - even with a 4 weeks notice period - your going to be sent home and paid off.

Just wondered, if a break clause could be put into a 6 months contract (say after 3 months) in such a way - that if terms or rates are not agreed with the contractor, the contractor can walk - but they agent can't ditch you. I guess that is like having your cake and eating it?

In the absence of the above, I guess its just a 3 month rolling contract. And that would make sense, as per above a 6 months contract is pretty much pointless.

[HairyArsedBloke]

My moneys on him being a totally moronoic insane troll.

Should I do my Captain Oveur ploy on him? It normally shuts them up.

[shanti]

My moneys on him being a totally moronoic insane troll.

Dude, you can't go in and ask for 800 per day when the agent is not able to bill for that amount?

You have to see how the agent is making his money (i.e. his terms of business with the Clientco).

If the agent is just making a commission (and there are other ways) - then its just about what the Clientco is willing to pay - and the agent will get his margin.

If the agent is getting a flat fee, i.e. 500 per day for get resource in - and its up to him how cheap/expensive he can find someone, then the contractor should give him a fair 8-25% margin and the take the rest if that is an acceptable remaining amount.

Point is, you don't know how to be fair to an agent - until they are prepared to be transparent.

Transparency is the key... didn't we learn anything for the Parliment's Expenses scandal???

[Sockpuppet]

To me, a 6 months contract means nothing, particularly if there is a 1 day noticed period for the agency (plenty of agents will talk of 6months contract knowing the work is not there). The only benefit of a 6 months contract is that the agent benefits from holding down the contractor's rate for 6 months. If people do not want you - you will be walking irrespective of the renewal date - even with a 4 weeks notice period - your going to be sent home and paid off.

Just wondered, if a break clause could be put into a 6 months contract (say after 3 months) in such a way - that if terms or rates are not agreed with the contractor, the contractor can walk - but they agent can't ditch you. I guess that is like having your cake and eating it?

In the absence of the above, I guess its just a 3 month rolling contract. And that would make sense, as per above a 6 months contract is pretty much pointless.

FFS!

You're really not cut out for this contracting business aren't you. Why don't you just go permie, you'll get paid less but with the stress and anger in your first post you might just live a few years longer.

[shanti]

FFS!

You're really not cut out for this contracting business aren't you. Why don't you just go permie, you'll get paid less but with the stress and anger in your first post you might just live a few years longer.

If you get selected for a role by Clientco, you have negotiation leverage with an agent. We should all be asking for transparency from the middle men, we didn't get into this business to make the pimps rich - but are willing to pay them a fair commission for their work in securing work. Sounds fair.

[RichardCranium]

Can I ask to see the agency "master schedule contract" or "terms of business" with their clientco?

Of course you can. You are perfectly entitled to do this.

Is there something called "Open book"? Where the terms of the clientco to agency contract is visible to the contractor. That way I know what they are billing out and what cut I am getting.

There is indeed a form of negotiation where everything is done openly. It is used by organisations such as ACAS and peace negotiators. Recruitment agents are unlikely to be familiar with it so you just need to explain that is how you wish to do business with them.

Also the agent has put a 1 day notice period to fire the contractor and the contractor can't provide any notice to them.

That's correct. That s essential for IR35; do not get that changed!

For all I know, they could be getting 4 weeks notice from the clientco upon termination - paying me for a day and pocketing the difference(!)

That would be immoral; no UK recruitment agent would ever do such a thing. They could be thrown out of REC or ATSCO and that would be the end of them. They would never risk that.

I want transparency [/B]- to ensure that the notice periods (and other T&C's) match what they are on with the clientco and their commissions are reasonable. How do I ask for this - is it called an open book contract?

Just tell them you need to be a signatory on the client contract. They will understand.

If I don't get this transparency, I think I should walk.

Quite right too.

...your advise urgently welcomed.

OK. 'advise' is a verb, the noun is 'advice'.

[RichardCranium]

A little bit of leverage there to get the agent to play ball

Are you a management consultant?

Anycase, I understand that contracts with noticed periods which are not reciprocal are not enforceable - they can put anything on the contract for non-termination on the contractors part - but if you leave - they can't enforce it? Is this the case?

It is essential for IR35 that it be different, otherwise you would be an employee.

can I put something in the contract to ask for renegotiation after a couple of months with the agent (without ending the contract)?

Of course you can; this happens with big government contracts all the time. Most of us do so at renewal; just tell the agent you only want "a 3 month term" and then you can renegotiate at 13 weeks.

I could get in with the client and then have more bargining power later - anyone done this - what do you ask for??

Once your feet are under the desk, you can ask for whatever you think is fair. An extra 20% is not uncommon at the first contract renewal. I should ask for 40% and let them negotiate you down to 25% or 20% so they think they've won!

[RichardCranium]

The only benefit of a 6 months contract is that the agent benefits from holding down the contractor's rate for 6 months.

Absolutely right! That's how agents make so much money out of us. Tell them you want "a 3 month term".

Just wondered, if a break clause could be put into a 6 months contract (say after 3 months) in such a way - that if terms or rates are not agreed with the contractor, the contractor can walk - but they agent can't ditch you.

It's all about negotiation. Just tell the agent that's what you want. It's a common enough request; they just don't like to admit it.

In the absence of the above, I guess its just a 3 month rolling contract. And that would make sense, as per above a 6 months contract is pretty much pointless.

Absolutely.

Remember, you don't need them (there's loads of agencies) but they need you (there's only one of you).

[RichardCranium]

Dude, you can't go in and ask for 800 per day when the agent is not able to bill for that amount?

You can ask!

You have to see how the agent is making his money (i.e. his terms of business with the Clientco).

That's right. That's why you need to be a signatory on his contract with the client, so you can see that contract.

If the agent is just making a commission (and there are other ways)

Aren't there just!

If the agent is getting a flat fee, i.e. 500 per day for get resource in - and its up to him how cheap/expensive he can find someone, then the contractor should give him a fair 8-25% margin and the take the rest if that is an acceptable remaining amount.

I never give them more than 10% unless they have been very efficient.

Point is, you don't know how to be fair to an agent - until they are prepared to be transparent. Transparency is the key... didn't we learn anything for the Parliment's Expenses scandal???

Yes, we learned how to spell Parliament!

Seriously though, you are quite right and correct. Unless the agent lets you see and sign their contract with the client, they might be being unfair to you. That is an amateur's mistake and you are right not to make it.

Just tell them you are not an amateur and you'll walk if they don't let you sign the client contract; they'll soon cave in. Especially if you tell them you'll let them have 10% as a bonus.

[RichardCranium]

I think everyone is just being horrible to you because your name sounds Indian. There are a lot of jealous people in the UK because there are Indian doctors and programmers. They are trying to tease you, that's all. I'm sure they don't mean anything malicious.

Anyway, first thing in the morning, 'phone that agent and tell them how it's going to be. Better still, write it down in an email and get it sent tonight; then thy will know you mean business.

Good luck!