Blatant advert for role due for an Indian National

[malvolio]

But the "consultancies " and off shore companies have the ear of New Labour and the Tories too.
.

Then again a certain, fairly effective trade organisation has the ear of the MAC committee what sets the rules. Like clearance, this is an adminstration thing, not a political one. The parties have very little real influence

[MPwannadecentincome]

This applies equally to junior dev roles. I had to sit through an hour lecture at college by someone responsible for offshoring at cap gemini insisting they were only offshoring "low responsibility" roles like coding. I'm not looking forward to working with systems designed by people with no development experience behind them.

coding is 'low responsibility' is it? be careful next time you do on-line banking or fly on a fly-by-wire aircraft!

[minestrone]

coding is 'low responsibility' is it? be careful next time you do on-line banking or fly on a fly-by-wire aircraft!

I once read a quote from someone high up in the BCS saying that coders were the equivalent of bricklayers. Needless to say I never have felt the need to join the BCS.

[minestrone]

Then again a certain, fairly effective trade organisation has the ear of the MAC committee what sets the rules. Like clearance, this is an adminstration thing, not a political one. The parties have very little real influence

I know you get a bit of stick about the PCG which I am not going to give but would you not agree that they might have had their eye off the ball during the last few years?

[HairyArsedBloke]

I know you get a bit of stick about the PCG which I am not going to give but would you not agree that they might have had their eye off the ball during the last few years?

Few! FEW!

They have let down all contractors with their sucking up to the government over this issue.

[NotAllThere]

This applies equally to junior dev roles. I had to sit through an hour lecture at college by someone responsible for offshoring at cap gemini insisting they were only offshoring "low responsibility" roles like coding. I'm not looking forward to working with systems designed by people with no development experience behind them.

The idea that coding is a commodity, a semi-skilled job has been around for a long time. Essentially, consultancies can't deal with real technical skills, only woolly, touchy feely stuff. With the former, you have to deliver. With the latter you just spin it to look like you've delivered - perception is everything. So they have to devalue technical ability. In SAP consultancies, the business analysts will get charged out at, say, £1500 a day, but the programmers at £500 - or free with every business analyst. Some business analysts are good programmers, and so can write specs that can be offshored. Most aren't.

I moderate a forum where a majority of contributers are Indian developers. There is an astonishingly low level of knowledge and, especially ability. For example, one top contributer who thinks that modularisation of code is just "cosmetic".

It's further exacerbated by the fact that India has quite a hierarchical society. Within IT, programmers are firmly at the bottom - it's what new entrants do. So, if someone is any good, within two years, they're out of there - either into management, or more business oriented stuff. So you never get good experienced programmers. And there's no continuity of course, with such a high turn over.

It was highly amusing to see major users of outsourcing crapping themselves when Satyam went down. "Oh smeg - what will happen to our systems now? We've no control!".

So, I don't worry about the fact that most development now is being done by newbies. It means it will have to be rewritten, maintained. And that's going to net me a lot of money (actually, it already does).

The danger we face is Eastern Europe, where the you'll have programmers with 15 years experience. Fortunately, their rates are rising, so eventually, IT will come home to roost. With one of my clients, they've already realised this. Only really basic, bulk/repetitive stuff that can be safely offshored is not done in-house.

[malvolio]

I know you get a bit of stick about the PCG which I am not going to give but would you not agree that they might have had their eye off the ball during the last few years?

Errm...

Who got IT off the Skills Shortages list?

Who was insturmental in making the change from the old feeble qualifications system to the new points-based visa system?

Who is leading the fight against misuse of ICTs?

Come to that, who got the change made that ICTs weren't an unconditional guarantee of an entry visa?

You are making the usual mistake, of thinking the crap we have now is because nobody has done anything to stop it. Has it never occurred to you to wonder what it would be like if we hadn't been involved? Next time you're anywhere near a hospital, for example, take a look around.

[NotAllThere]

Some people think that "tea and biscuits" sessions with the powers that be, is akin to negotiating with terrorists. You'll never get their mindsets to change.

[minestrone]

Errm...
Has it never occurred to you to wonder what it would be like if we hadn't been involved? Next time you're anywhere near a hospital, for example, take a look around.

If you are going to use that as an example then I suggest you take a walk into most bank's IT department. I am not belittling their achievements in the past but they are always years behind the trend, act when the damage is being done.

The BN66 stuff on here seems to be much more proactive in raising awareness for their cause, I am not sure if the 'oh we hold a seat on this committee, just leave it up to us' approach that the PCG use really is the best form of campaign. The argument is quite clear to me, third world labour being imported into this country should not be allowed and it is happening now, why the PCG are just getting round to an evidence gathering phase shows a certain slowness to react, at best.

[d000hg]

I once read a quote from someone high up in the BCS saying that coders were the equivalent of bricklayers. Needless to say I never have felt the need to join the BCS.

Bricklaying is a skilled task. Like coding there are a few who are really good at it, loads who get the job done, and loads who make something that doesn't fall over but makes you feel nervous relying on it.