I just need to get two references ...

[d000hg]

And the problem is? How do you think agencies get clients???

The same way I'd get a client in a world without agencies... build a directory of companies who might need the services I provide and then contact them to see if they are interested in letting me pitch myself. I guess that would be hard work when you only stand to make £50 a day per person they hire through you, much better to get the leads spoon-fed to you.

Let me be clear, in an ideal world I'd be happy to pass leads onto an agent I knew was a decent chap, who I had a working relationship with. Like in the old days where customers actually had a relationship with their bank manager. But a total stranger trying to get leads out of me with no intention of giving anything back unless they stand to make a profit - why should I help? If we could see agencies acting to build relationships rather than feed off the top there'd be way less bitching.

[Gonzo]

Hi Folks

To be honest I cannot understand the animosity. The argument is between me and DA, not the rest of you.

It's a big playground here, to fit in you have to behave more like a teenager than an adult.

Just remember to play by two rules:

1. You are always right.
2. Enyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.

Those two rules always apply to everyone, at all times.

[DodgyAgent]

The same way I'd get a client in a world without agencies... build a directory of companies who might need the services I provide and then contact them to see if they are interested in letting me pitch myself. I guess that would be hard work when you only stand to make £50 a day per person they hire through you, much better to get the leads spoon-fed to you.

Let me be clear, in an ideal world I'd be happy to pass leads onto an agent I knew was a decent chap, who I had a working relationship with. Like in the old days where customers actually had a relationship with their bank manager. But a total stranger trying to get leads out of me with no intention of giving anything back unless they stand to make a profit - why should I help? If we could see agencies acting to build relationships rather than feed off the top there'd be way less bitching.

What I find mind boggling is that my fellow agent firmly believes that he has a right to be given leads, on the basis that "how else is an agent going to get leads"

I am sorry ADA you have no right to leads, you have to earn those leads.

I will also say about this whole reference thing is that I am not sanctimonious about using references for gaining leads (when I am submitting a CV I just do not have time to check references and I am pretty sure that most other agents are the same-In fact I would go so far as sacking anyone who wasted time on CV references and thus delaying their presentation to the clients).

The problem I have is with these slimey toads pretending that the obtaining of references is for some other reason than simply getting leads.

Excuses trotted out include:

1. Legal obligation (bollOcks)
2. Professionalism (utter boll0cks)
3. How else do I get leads (if you dont know get another job)

I know references are used for getting leads ( I do it myself. If I need to find the name of a hiring manager at say HSBC I will go through the CV database and look for people who are either working there or have left. If that person has a reference on their CV then Bingo, I will use it).

I also know that the obtaining and exploitation of leads is the cornerstone of a lot of agencies business models (it is not mine, but I have been strongly advised to implement it).

Why dont they just admit it?

[Joe Bloque]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with DA on this. In my current gig I sit beside the client co guy who hires. He regularly gets calls on his desk phone from "scumbags" calling themselves as "your previous supplier". One such "sumbags" agency name sounds a lot like Accenture but they have bit of variation in the spelling. Whenever these guys call, client literally hangs up the phone "for f**k sake".

As DA said, you got to earn those leads. Would you trust sales person on your front door, from an unknown company (even if he's got "ID" on him) offering double glazing deals?. Agents like ADA should try their tricks on people fresh off the boat to this country. May be being thick skinned is part of an agent's job but they should be having atleast a slight inkling what happens after a flopped cold call. I don't want to advise agents how to win business, but this silly game of 'i want 2 references' won't do good for any one particularly to agents.

Cold calling would have worked in 1999, clearly it does not work in 2009, atleast in techie development projects that need people who should really be knowing their stuff.

[Another Dodgy Agent]

What I find mind boggling is that my fellow agent firmly believes that he has a right to be given leads, on the basis that "how else is an agent going to get leads"

I am sorry ADA you have no right to leads, you have to earn those leads.

I will also say about this whole reference thing is that I am not sanctimonious about using references for gaining leads (when I am submitting a CV I just do not have time to check references and I am pretty sure that most other agents are the same-In fact I would go so far as sacking anyone who wasted time on CV references and thus delaying their presentation to the clients).

The problem I have is with these slimey toads pretending that the obtaining of references is for some other reason than simply getting leads.

Excuses trotted out include:

1. Legal obligation (bollOcks)
2. Professionalism (utter boll0cks)
3. How else do I get leads (if you dont know get another job)

I know references are used for getting leads ( I do it myself. If I need to find the name of a hiring manager at say HSBC I will go through the CV database and look for people who are either working there or have left. If that person has a reference on their CV then Bingo, I will use it).

I also know that the obtaining and exploitation of leads is the cornerstone of a lot of agencies business models (it is not mine, but I have been strongly advised to implement it).

Why dont they just admit it?

Hello fellow agent, we must meet one day I am fascinated by what you must be like.

Anyhow, in response, yet again (and now with some peace as they family have retired to bed and I have my domain back to my own), you misunderstand me. I was talking generically about agents and how they get leads, one obvious route is references! Reverse the psychology for a moment though, rather than taking references to gain a lead it should be taking references to gain a reference and if subsequently you get "an in" to a business then what is wrong with that? That is where I am coming from.

Now you get angry ADA, DA, I know leads have to be worked for not given, how do you think I have thrived in our industry for the last 11 odd years. Stop with the procrastination or I will be forced to use the punching smily men ---> I can use this icon at will and will do unless you behave, you have been warned!

After drinking way too many drams the other night and getting "nasty" on here (back handed apology if you will) I thought I would talk to my new business team about how they gain line manager names, I spend far too long with the account managers so we rarely witness much sales, much of the account management new business is gained through ex contractors becoming hiring managers and/or ex clients moving to a new client site.

The new business team say that they get manager names easily via LinkedIn and our own database, so names is not a problem. What they get though is either voicemail or said line manager using the "we have a PSL!". Agent: "is that formal or informal?" Line Manager "formal". Agent: "Does the PSL take into account specialist suppliers? Line Manager: "yes", Agent: "Ok who is responsible for the PSL?" etc. etc. In other words, even using references as "an in" most agents are no further forward, all you have provided is a new set of arguments and objections to them.


When I used to cold call, we used to fax CV's, had no email and shut the office down if someone made a placement, "up the pub, put the ansaphone on, went the cry!" Yes I am probably older than DA!

I think in this current market, line manager names and candidates are easy to come by, putting the two together is hard work, but that is what a good agent is paid for so there you have it!

Love you all

ADA

[Shimano105]

drivel

[Moscow Mule]

drivel

It's a bit like heroin though - you know it's going to fry your brain but you can't stop coming back for more to see what new depths he will plumb...

[jmo21]

Good!

And the problem is? How do you think agencies get clients???

Because you are (as an indidvidual) too much hassle. The client will NOT ask for references prior to an offer, however as a recruitment consultant I would look to have references in place prior to submitting your CV for two reasons: a) I can submit your references with your CV, creditability to my client will be fantastic, look they have references for this candiate already, how many other agencies have submitted referenced candidates?

b) I don't know you are capable of that which you put in your CV, nothing worse (and boy does it happen) where you submit a non referenced candidate, who subsequently cannot deliver and we have not referenced because they refuse to provide references, no surprise there then.

Likewise I have no reason to trust you either.

That's fine but imagine you are the client for the moment. Would you not want a reference check taken out on a candidate submitted to you?

No problem, you have every reason to be sceptical, however I hope I have demonstated above why they are necessary and not everyone is out to get your referee's!

ADA, as I said in the post, I have no problem giving references if I believe that's what are actually being used for. We AGREE on that part.

But you continue to go on about why references are a good thing for the client. I AGREE.

The problem is, ex-bosses get annoyed by being perpetually harassed by agents phoning them up. I don't want my references to get annoyed by agent calls, and get to the point where they do not return calls to the "good" agents who ARE actually trying to reference my work.

The problem is, my time is being wasted listening to cock and bull stories about jobs, when all it is, is a fishing expedition for leads.

The problem is, f u c k i n g annoying.

The problem is, an incredibly large percentage of the recruitment industry works in this fashion.

So yes, you may well be one of the honorable few, I'll never know, and yes, you have no reason to trust me, I may or may not bulltulip on my CV, you'll never know.

So don't sit their and try and tell me that most agents are gathering references for the correct reasons, most are not. They may see it as a legitimate way of getting business, but it pisses us contractors off for the reasons I gave above, and more that I can't think of right now.

[Another Dodgy Agent]

drivel

Its funny cos your original post was "drive", I knew you would correct it sooner or later but I was desperate to come on here and post "where to guv"! I still have the email reply on my Blackberry. I found it very funny, whilst you were trying to be abusive. Bless!

Anyhow, "drivel", that is a well thought out argument, I can see you have gone to the effort of factoring in all the various points I tried to make and subsequently you have come up with a well thought out, concise counter argument. I particularly liked your take on me approaching my new business team, it's almost (and stop me here if you think I am being too expansive) that you have gone off, thought about the various points, come back and typed up a weighted response.

Drive! :-) Very funny!

[Another Dodgy Agent]

It's a bit like heroin though - you know it's going to fry your brain but you can't stop coming back for more to see what new depths he will plumb...

And your experience of Heroin is??? What depths am I plumbing? If these depths are truly deep do you think I should take out insurance? I seek advice only because you seem so wise and fat with knowledge!