Cost of living and day rate

[PerfectStorm]

Can’t you just say you will work hybrid and then not? Buggers at my last “hybrid” contract never even gave me a security pass.

Not sure how widespread this is.

I've found in a few places the agents view of the expected attendance is much higher than what people actually get away with.

Once you've got your feet under the table, start staying at home. Utilise the Outside IR35 power of determining where, when and how you do the work.

[malvolio]

I've found in a few places the agents view of the expected attendance is much higher than what people actually get away with.

Once you've got your feet under the table, start staying at home. Utilise the Outside IR35 power of determining where, when and how you do the work.

Just be aware of the politics. Recent two gigs have been primarily WFH but be prepared to get into the office on short notice if it is necessary. All well and good asserting your independence but not at the expense of good PR with the client. Plus, of course, it is your decision to be in the office, just as much as it is to be at home with the Hobnobs, so I've never really bought into the IR35 defence aspect, which, like RoS, is pretty weak in reality.

[ensignia]

Once you've got your feet under the table, start staying at home. Utilise the Outside IR35 power of determining where, when and how you do the work.

Use this at your peril. I've exercised the "DAC" part of outside contracts before and ultimately it's led to my contract being cut short both times. When 99% of contractors do as they're absolutely told without question you're marking yourself out as a trouble maker.

Although this was before Covid changed the landscape, so it'll very likely be much less unusual these days I suspect.

On a related note, 100% remote contracts are getting harder and harder to find and the ones I've seen are paying less and for less high profile clients.

[northernladuk]

Once you've got your feet under the table, start staying at home. Utilise the Outside IR35 power of determining where, when and how you do the work.

IR35 has nothing to do with where and when you work. It does cover direction and control and some elements of what a client asks/demands what you do can be covered by this but in the most part location and time is not one of them.

That is likely to be covered by the contract or various onboarding communication. 9 -5/core working hours, x days at this office etc. It's a contractual obligation and nothing to do with IR35.

If the client has been slack and not covered it properly it's still not open season to demand you do what you want. It's commercial suicide to try force a client. You 'might' get away with it but more likely they will pull a clause on you that is definitely in your contract. On top of that there is also professional courtesy to tie your working style in with a clients requirements.

If any proper supplier starts demanding different conditions than the client wants there is going to be trouble, even more so when it's just one replaceable bod.

Pretty daft idea to be using this method unless you are fully prepared for the expected fall out.

[Jolie]

Once you've got your feet under the table, start staying at home. Utilise the Outside IR35 power of determining where, when and how you do the work.

And how the contract is written. Although it depends on how niche the work is.

With my last client, I had the contracts changed to show only my company name, the work being carried out at my business address and each contract had a set piece of work to complete with an agreed cost to be invoiced on completion.

This obviously isn't something that can be achieved with most IT contracts, but for those lucky enough to have niche skills and/or have a good relationship with the directors at the client, it's what you should be aiming to do.

A lot also depends on the nature of the work, can it be done outside the client with no direction and control, or requirements from the normal agile/scrum team environment?

In my case this was an easy yes, I had set pieces of work to do that required nobody else.

As northernladuk said, IR35 has nothing to do with where and when you work, but it will help you with the overall picture should you be investigated.

[SussexSeagull]

Every contract will be different, even different contracts with the same client.

Since lockdown I have spent the grand total of two days in an office and the client has been happy with that but at some point I will need to go back to an office wither part of full time.

[jamesbrown]

IR35 has nothing to do with where and when you work. It does cover direction and control and some elements of what a client asks/demands what you do can be covered by this but in the most part location and time is not one of them.

I disagree. What, where, when and how are all part of D&C and this is evidenced in case law. As to the significance of each element, it depends on the context. For example, the "how" is less important, in general, when you're a recognised expert because the client has contracted you to determine the "how" and, were they to employ you directly, they still wouldn't tell you "how". In that situation, distinctions (versus how employees are treated) w/r to what, when and where start to become more important, although D&C overall may carry less weight.

[northernladuk]

I disagree. What, where, when and how are all part of D&C and this is evidenced in case law. As to the significance of each element, it depends on the context. For example, the "how" is less important, in general, when you're a recognised expert because the client has contracted you to determine the "how" and, were they to employ you directly, they still wouldn't tell you "how". In that situation, distinctions (versus how employees are treated) w/r to what, when and where start to become more important, although D&C overall may carry less weight.

Fair comment. I dropped how and focussed on when and where meaning, client office or home and what hours so a very specific scenario. Both of those are generally covered by the contract and are part of the agreement of the work. In general I see your point, but I do think it's very situation specific and when it comes to being used as a sledgehammer to force a client to do something they've agreed and expected it's not an IR35 issue i.e. if its' agreed in the contract or some other documented expecation.

You can't take a contract where the client stipulates 3 days in office, professional working day with core hours 10 to 4 and then expect IR35 to work as a reason not to do that is my point.

[TheGreenBastard]

If the client has been slack and not covered it properly it's still not open season to demand you do what you want. It's commercial suicide to try force a client. You 'might' get away with it but more likely they will pull a clause on you that is definitely in your contract. On top of that there is also professional courtesy to tie your working style in with a clients requirements.

If any proper supplier starts demanding different conditions than the client wants there is going to be trouble, even more so when it's just one replaceable bod.

This just highlights to me how right the IR35 legislation is (in theory). No other "supplier" type gets controlled so tightly and pretends to be a legit "business" as IT contractors. If you're just a "replaceable bod" blurred in a sea of perm peers then it's an absolute piss take.

To be explicit, I absolutely think you should have leverage as you're an expert resource brought in for a specific requirement.

[northernladuk]

This just highlights to me how right the IR35 legislation is (in theory). No other "supplier" type gets controlled so tightly and pretends to be a legit "business" as IT contractors. If you're just a "replaceable bod" blurred in a sea of perm peers then it's an absolute piss take.

To be explicit, I absolutely think you should have leverage as you're an expert resource brought in for a specific requirement.

You certainly do. I don't think anyone is denying that. You get in to bed and then negotiate everything as you do have some position power for sure. I think the point we were discussing was using IR35 as a sledgehammer to make the client bow to demands that were never in their expectations. Taking a gig that has clear expecations and may even be contractually documented to be hybrid in the office and then saying you aren't doing it and don't have to because of IR35 is just poor form. It may be possible and there are much better ways of doing it.

You've got to expect the worst though as clients won't be happy. You're clearly taking the piss in that example. I've seen first hand contractors with long commutes join and within 2 weeks telling a client they want WFH. No question they took the gig clearly expecting to change it later. I've seen three outcomes, client folding to them which pissed off everyone else there and the client was less than impressed, the client said no and the contractor left soon after and the client saying no and the contactor gets terminated soon after. That was the old world when it was full time office though. Will be pretty different now so interesting to see how it pans out over time.