Inside IR35 contracts with 2/3 days on site for travelling contractors

[SueEllen]

For some reason I have to be onsite 2 days a week despite my team being in the US and India.

A client manager needs to feel like they are managing someone.

[SueEllen]

Current client -project team all over the UK. Some have moved around the country.

Previous client - project team all over the world.

Client before that - project team all over the SE as that's when Covid stuck

[Protagoras]

Discouraging 'travelling contractors' has for some time been part of the plan to impede the UK flexible labour market - can't allow contractors to compete on a level playing field with the big consultancies, so converting contractors to workers with no expenses clearly makes sense.

[JohnM]

I don't wish to be rude but which rock have you been living under all these years? It appears we haven't mentioned it (which we have.. a lot!) is because that discussion point sailed years ago.

It was discussed heavily in 2016 when the rules about expenses for Umbrellas changed
It was further discussed at least a year before the changes to the public sector hit in 2017
It was also discussed between 2017 and 2021 when we expected the changes to extend to the private sector in 2021
It was moaned about constantly after they hit with many contractors being moved inside and could no longer stay at their gigs so had to leave.

What is this news to you?

If you'd had have a clue of what was happening in your industry you might have joined the numerous fights that went on to try combat the gov and/or educate clients on the effects of the blanket banning or moving their contractors inside instead of complaining about it over 6 years after the issue first emerged.

What you are missing that it also means travelling contractors can't come to your area and more local roles appear so there is a flipside to it. Some areas will benefit more than others for sure but watching the market and the State of the Market thread I think the statement that it's strangling the contractor market to death is a bit of an over exaggeration. It was a difficult time riding the merry go round at the time and some have left to take up lucrative perm roles for sure but it's hardly strangulated the market IMO.

JB says it's the elephant in the room which also surprises me. It's been a key topic of discussion at every point and times inbetween. Maybe I've misunderstood what he means by that but it's certainly been up for discussion a lot from what I can see.

The vast majority of gigs being inside has only really been an issue the last 18 months since they changed the rules in the private sector. My point was aimed at travelling contractors, they are strangling the life out of that market I meant. It used to be that most of us travelled all over the country and the employment market was pretty flexible.

Now inside gigs with travel are simply not an option anymore as you say with the changes to umbrella expenses exacerbating this problem. I

We are now seeing more and more offshore companies trying to recruit UK contractors for UK projects. Its just so ill thought out. At a conservative estimate rates have maybe doubled, say for an example the NHS was paying a normal developer £350 a day a few years back. Now they are paying Infosys etc £500 a day who are trying to recruit UK contractors at £350 a day, I know this as I have been approached several times and offered interviews for similar roles (obviously rates and NHS changed for privacy reasons). Its just a massive wealth drain out of the UK. That is without factoring in the amount of roles that have been lost off shore. This was happening anyway, I get this but the acceleration over the last 18 months has been stark

It doesn't really affect us THAT much as you say there is still plenty of work at around the same or even better rates than a couple of years ago because we can always find remote roles but in terms of the economy it is mental they just have either not thought this through or its being pushed by people with other motives ie our new PM/Infosys links etc. I don't know but it is such a shame

[northernladuk]

The vast majority of gigs being inside has only really been an issue the last 18 months since they changed the rules in the private sector.

Don't agree with that. There were 1000's of roles that went inside at the public sector. I guess you were in private and had your head stuck so far down in the sand you didn't see the impact on the public sector.

My point was aimed at travelling contractors, they are strangling the life out of that market I meant. It used to be that most of us travelled all over the country and the employment market was pretty flexible.

You do talk some trollop. Most people travelled all over the country? I don't think that is true. Some did but most were commutable. And WTF has the employment market got to do with us? The more you talk the less of a clue you sound to have.

Now inside gigs with travel are simply not an option anymore as you say with the changes to umbrella expenses exacerbating this problem.

So get better and get outside gigs.

We are now seeing more and more offshore companies trying to recruit UK contractors for UK projects. Its just so ill thought out. At a conservative estimate rates have maybe doubled, say for an example the NHS was paying a normal developer £350 a day a few years back. Now they are paying Infosys etc £500 a day who are trying to recruit UK contractors at £350 a day, I know this as I have been approached several times and offered interviews for similar roles (obviously rates and NHS changed for privacy reasons). Its just a massive wealth drain out of the UK. That is without factoring in the amount of roles that have been lost off shore. This was happening anyway, I get this but the acceleration over the last 18 months has been stark

It doesn't really affect us THAT much as you say there is still plenty of work at around the same or even better rates than a couple of years ago because we can always find remote roles but in terms of the economy it is mental they just have either not thought this through or its being pushed by people with other motives ie our new PM/Infosys links etc. I don't know but it is such a shame

Off topic rant. Suck it up buttercup.

[lecyclist]

..
It used to be that most of us travelled all over the country and the employment market was pretty flexible.
..

Certainly true for a previous generation of contractors, especially where the skills were more exotic, or tied to expensive proprietary ERP systems for example with a small list of global clients.

The observation is however an example of sample self-selection, or confirmation bias, as the types of contractors who worked in these highly mobile/ transient projects often met colleagues in the same situation as themselves.

My observation even prior to COVID was that the vast majority of contractors prefer to stay in one location *if they can*. Strange as it may seem to me and you, even younger single contractors appear to prefer this lifestyle.

While hybrid working may for some present a fantastic opportunity to work anywhere they please (see the other threads concerning Digital Nomad visas, for example, as evidence that there continues to be a group of contractors who have an appetite to travel) the norm is still to stay in one place.

[JohnM]

Don't agree with that. There were 1000's of roles that went inside at the public sector. I guess you were in private and had your head stuck so far down in the sand you didn't see the impact on the public sector.

You do talk some trollop. Most people travelled all over the country? I don't think that is true. Some did but most were commutable. And WTF has the employment market got to do with us? The more you talk the less of a clue you sound to have.


So get better and get outside gigs.

Off topic rant. Suck it up buttercup.

Are you always pretentious and rude or just when you post online with anonymous handle names ?

Is it really necessary to be an insufferable know it all in EVERY post

[jamesbrown]

Are you always pretentious and rude or just when you post online with anonymous handle names ?

Is it really necessary to be an insufferable know it all in EVERY post

Are you new here? We’re all rude, pretentious, insufferable know-it-alls

[Paralytic]

We’re all rude, pretentious, insufferable know-it-alls

Wrong.

I'm rude, pretentious and insufferable, but there's a few things I don't know

[northernladuk]

Are you always pretentious and rude or just when you post online with anonymous handle names ?

Is it really necessary to be an insufferable know it all in EVERY post

Granted it was a bit rude but the point was it's just a general rant with some very suspect arguments in it so really don't know what you want us to say. If we pointed out some of the facts that we've been discussing in much more relevant detail for many years then that might help you re-think your points. IMO It's your head you need to get right, not fix contracting. As pointed out this has been a topic for many years and you not thinking this affected the public sector is a flaw in your argument as an example. Because you've missed/ignored/not understood some key points it just makes it a bit open season. Mentioning employment markets when discussing contractor issues really doesn't add any credibility to the argument either to be honest.

To be fair as well, many of us, some more so than others, have been working hard to fight this since first announcements and other times after. Speaking to MPs, lobbying IPSE, educating clients and all sorts and actually doing something about it. People that didn't care or didn't know are actually part of the problem so popping up with this rhetoric so late on is a bit annoying. If you didn't want to be part of the fight and just being a bit upset so far down the line then you've got to expect you aren't going to get much sympathy or cuddles. Sorry, it's a tough world out there and this is a faceless internet forum. Best off to ignore me when I go off on one but I'll stand by my comments in general, there are some good points in there you might want to consider. Just have to filter out the rude bits.