New to Contracting - working v part time for old employer - bad idea?

[simes]

So people are happy to sign two contracts to run simultaneously that both require you to be available between 0900 and 1700?

Also, what happens if and when they want you to go back to the office?

Speaking only for myself, perfectly happy. If you can organise your diary, deliver as per, your 'Business' will have multiple revenue streams. Is that not what Business is all about? Ever heard of putting all ones eggs in one basket? Is there any other business model that survives with just one revenue stream.

I am quite disappointed in the non business-like manner in which this thread has evolved. Especially with all the clients we are hoping to eventually be educated into Outside IR35 ways. Very strange.

As to 'going back into the office', that is entirely one's choice ahead of accepting a contract but, popping in every now and again should certainly be accommodated. Going in fulltime though does not have to be a part of one's business model.

[SussexSeagull]

Why not?



Inside IR35 alarm bells ringing again (my business isn't under their control); if they force a return to office, I decline, it's their loss. Remember multi-gigging is multiple income streams, I'm in a far stronger position not to put up with any client tomfoolery, I have RAID redundancy baked into my businesses finances.

For what it's worth I multi-gigged just before covid doing doing 1 on-site day at an hedge fund on Monday, and the rest of the week at some FTSE. Other times I worked on site occasionally for one client, and one remote, so it is possible.

My business operates 100% remotely now, irrespective of handling multiple clients, I'm done with onsite crap, pure bum on seat nonsense for senior developers.

It is perfectly possible to work for one client and have hours of work mentioned while being outside IR35. I have literally worked for outfits that start up at 0900 and finish at 1730 so there isn't really much room for flexible working.

That sounds like they weren't five day a week contracts, which isn't what a lot of people on here running two contracts at a time are saying.

If you don't want to work onsite again then fine but I can't help but think it limits options.

[SussexSeagull]

Speaking only for myself, perfectly happy. If you can organise your diary, deliver as per, your 'Business' will have multiple revenue streams. Is that not what Business is all about? Ever heard of putting all ones eggs in one basket? Is there any other business model that survives with just one revenue stream.

I am quite disappointed in the non business-like manner in which this thread has evolved. Especially with all the clients we are hoping to eventually be educated into Outside IR35 ways. Very strange.

As to 'going back into the office', that is entirely one's choice ahead of accepting a contract but, popping in every now and again should certainly be accommodated. Going in fulltime though does not have to be a part of one's business model.

To repeat myself, if you sign up for more than one contract where you are pledging to put in a full working day then you are shortchanging the client. That isn't a moral judgement and good luck if you can pull it off but either client won't like it if they find out you are doing it.

So if Contract A wants you on the office tomorrow, do you not charge Contract B for that day?

[northernladuk]

And is not invoicing on an eight hour day all about Control and Permiedom and being Inside?

Nope. It's been the way forever and it's perfectly fine if all the pillars are in place.

Inside IR35 alarm bells ringing again (my business isn't under their control);

Where you deliver to a client is professional courtesy and can be writted in to a contract so a contracatual obligation. If what you say is true then we have carte blanche do do what we want regardless of the client and that simply won't work. A client returning to work after a global pandemic and changing their working practices has absolutely nothing to do with IR35.

Pointless arguing. GB does what he wants, he's gotten away with it so far so why shouldn't he carry on. No point arguing with him.. and Simes? Well Simes gonna Simes so we are all gonna have to agree to disagree and get on.

Does strike me as odd that the people against it can admit that in some cases it's possible but the people for it think they have free reign and no mention of situations where it is not possible. That alone speaks volumes to me but it is what it is and nothing is gonna change in this thread.

[TheGreenBastard]

It is perfectly possible to work for one client and have hours of work mentioned while being outside IR35. I have literally worked for outfits that start up at 0900 and finish at 1730 so there isn't really much room for flexible working.

That sounds like they weren't five day a week contracts, which isn't what a lot of people on here running two contracts at a time are saying.

If you don't want to work onsite again then fine but I can't help but think it limits options.

I simply don't agree, there's no reason a developer needs to have specific 0900 starts and 1730 finishes, unless they're pressing a button at very specific times that stops some island exploding, it's a very strong sign of client control. Mine are/were 5 day a week contracts - I just demonstrated some arrangements in the past that explained even on-site it was possible if you arrange your client facing time appropriately.

I would only resort to onsite in dire economic situations; remote I can flexibly scale up multiple clients and deliver much better, so I'd turn that on you, YOU are limiting your business options with on-site work.

Nope. It's been the way forever and it's perfectly fine if all the pillars are in place.

Where you deliver to a client is professional courtesy and can be writted in to a contract so a contracatual obligation. If what you say is true then we have carte blanche do do what we want regardless of the client and that simply won't work. A client returning to work after a global pandemic and changing their working practices has absolutely nothing to do with IR35.

Pointless arguing. GB does what he wants, he's gotten away with it so far so why shouldn't he carry on. No point arguing with him.. and Simes? Well Simes gonna Simes so we are all gonna have to agree to disagree and get on.

Does strike me as odd that the people against it can admit that in some cases it's possible but the people for it think they have free reign and no mention of situations where it is not possible. That alone speaks volumes to me but it is what it is and nothing is gonna change in this thread.

Yes, your client(s) shouldn't have any say in you having other clients or exclusivity, that's a red flag for IR35, you're fixating on contractual obligations - working practices are far more important and I'm in a far stronger position than someone claiming 8 hours dedication to a single contract per day, working extremely specific hours.

The logical conclusion sticking to the idea of exact 8 hour obligations is that whenever you don't fulfill that you should be rebating the client. I bet you don't.

[northernladuk]

I simply don't agree, there's no reason a developer needs to have specific 0900 starts and 1730 finishes, unless they're pressing a button at very specific times that stops some island exploding, it's a very strong sign of client control. Mine are/were 5 day a week contracts - I just demonstrated some arrangements in the past that explained even on-site it was possible if you arrange your client facing time appropriately.

Unless that is requested in the contract and is the clients expectation. It's there in black and white and anyone with a bum hole can tell if that's what the client expects. If it isn't in the contract, the client is aware and they are getting value for their money then fair enough. Fill your boots. If anyone of the three clients you have expect 8 hours work for the day rate then you are in the wrong, however much argue.. but you are getting away with it so fair enough.

It's pretty uncommon to find a client that is truely happy with that situation, let alone three. But it isn't impossible.

Yes, your client(s) shouldn't have any say in you having other clients or exclusivity, that's a red flag for IR35, you're fixating on contractual obligations - working practices are far more important and I'm in a far stronger position than someone claiming 8 hours dedication to a single contract per day, working extremely specific hours.

That's kind of the whole point of what we do? Fulfil contractual obligations? It's in our name for a start.

The logical conclusion sticking to the idea of exact 8 hour obligations is that whenever you don't fulfill that you should be rebating the client. I bet you don't.

A professional working day meeting clients expectations covers this. There is some flex on both sides and it works well for both. Doing 1/3 of the work expected by the client is a whole different situation. That's a poor argument.

But anyway, I don't even know why I'm replying.

[SussexSeagull]

Unless that is requested in the contract and is the clients expectation. It's there in black and white and anyone with a bum hole can tell if that's what the client expects. If it isn't in the contract, the client is aware and they are getting value for their money then fair enough. Fill your boots. If anyone of the three clients you have expect 8 hours work for the day rate then you are in the wrong, however much argue.. but you are getting away with it so fair enough.

It's pretty uncommon to find a client that is truely happy with that situation, let alone three. But it isn't impossible.


That's kind of the whole point of what we do? Fulfil contractual obligations? It's in our name for a start.

A professional working day meeting clients expectations covers this. There is some flex on both sides and it works well for both. Doing 1/3 of the work expected by the client is a whole different situation. That's a poor argument.

But anyway, I don't even know why I'm replying.

Likewise I think I am out.

[TheGreenBastard]

Unless that is requested in the contract and is the clients expectation. It's there in black and white and anyone with a bum hole can tell if that's what the client expects. If it isn't in the contract, the client is aware and they are getting value for their money then fair enough. Fill your boots. If anyone of the three clients you have expect 8 hours work for the day rate then you are in the wrong, however much argue.. but you are getting away with it so fair enough.

My point was that such stringent hours for a dev are clearly inside, highly specified hours for no reason other than control. If the end client determines you're outside, then good for you, otherwise it's clear as day that's a level of control that makes the working practices inside. None of my contract stipulate hours, two pay by a day rate, and they get a days worth of delivery in return, in line with my peers.

It's pretty uncommon to find a client that is truely happy with that situation, let alone three. But it isn't impossible.

That's kind of the whole point of what we do? Fulfil contractual obligations? It's in our name for a start.

A professional working day meeting clients expectations covers this. There is some flex on both sides and it works well for both. Doing 1/3 of the work expected by the client is a whole different situation. That's a poor argument.

But anyway, I don't even know why I'm replying.

Again, can't you read? Who does 1/3rd of the work? Multi-gigging requires delivery or it's a none starter. The fallacy is accurate, you can't argue a stringent position for businesses with multiple clients and then "flex" because you only ever do solo bum on seat permie style gigs.

[ensignia]

NLUK sees nothing wrong with posting endlessly on here during the supposed 8 hour working day though, funnily enough. I'm sure his employer would take a dim view of that.

[SussexSeagull]

NLUK sees nothing wrong with posting endlessly on here during the supposed 8 hour working day though, funnily enough. I'm sure his employer would take a dim view of that.

Do you really not have breaks during your working day? Never have five minutes where you can't start something else before a meeting starts? How about waiting for a job to complete before you are able to continue working?