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Overemployment / working two FT contracts at the same time?

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    #21
    Why should you necessarily have two simultaneous contracts for it be OK to only work 20 hours on a 40 hour contract?

    If someone were to ask on here whether it's OK to only work 20 hours even though they're contracted to work 40 hours should we be agreeing?

    I'm alright Jack

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      #22
      Originally posted by BlasterBates View Post
      Why should you necessarily have two simultaneous contracts for it be OK to only work 20 hours on a 40 hour contract?

      If someone were to ask on here whether it's OK to only work 20 hours even though they're contracted to work 40 hours should we be agreeing?
      That is always my thoughts as well but I'm not in a line of work that can deliver in a shorter time scale. There is always far too much do to in my line of work.

      But even if I was, it's pretty obvious a client pays a reasonable amount for an expected output. You can build in some efficiency being really good yes but if the client is getting a certain output for half what they think they are paying then there is a problem. If any supplier comes on and has over quoted by 100% they'd be out the door in a shot. I am sure there is scope to spend 10, 20 or even 30% less when delivering an outcome but that can only be realised in a fixed price piece of work. If a client is paying a day rate they expect a day regardless of delivering an outcome. They will be expecting you to deliver that outcome quicker if you are that good, not half the work.

      If you are delivering work in 20 hours and billing for 40 then you are ripping your client off. No efficiency or being great. There is an expectation from the client and you are fudging it and not meeting that expectation. You might think you are great but the client will be incredibly unhappy if it's laid bare. 20 hours in 40 is getting away with it by pulling the wool over their eyes. This could be because the client is crap at supplier management or has taken their eye off the ball. It's their fault I guess but in that case you can't argue anything except you taking them for a ride. Don't try dress it up that you are delivering the product twice as fast because you are so goo.

      As I say, may be one or two examples where that's not the case but on the whole I firmly believe working half the time for a client is taking the piss.

      All comes down to the golden rule. If you can't tell both of them what you are doing then you are taking the piss. At least be honest with yourself. If they know what you are doing you've given them ample excuse to sanity check what they are paying you and if they are OK with it fill your boots. But most won't. They'll look at the situation and expect a full day from their rate. You know it so don't kid yourself, or us.
      Last edited by northernladuk; 30 June 2022, 13:20.
      'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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        #23
        And to go back to a point I made earlier. If a contractor cannot understand the difference between Overemployment, Fixed Term Contracts, Outside and Inside IR35 I am absolutely certain they won't have the nouse to be able to negotiate two gigs properly whatever the argument about parallel delivery and the like.
        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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          #24
          The difficulty with answering this is that there are several types of "over employed" contractor. There's the contractor that takes two contracts and works 80 hours a week, half kills himself, then there's the contractor who works part time perhaps providing maintenance or support and then the contractor who sits there with two Laptops working in parallel and telling two clients he's working full time for both.

          For the first two types there are few legal implications, for the latter there is the risk of being taken to the cleaners. We can't quantify that risk though.
          I'm alright Jack

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            #25
            Originally posted by BlasterBates View Post
            The difficulty with answering this is that there are several types of "over employed" contractor. There's the contractor that takes two contracts and works 80 hours a week, half kills himself, then there's the contractor who works part time perhaps providing maintenance or support and then the contractor who sits there with two Laptops working in parallel and telling two clients he's working full time for both.

            For the first two types there are few legal implications, for the latter there is the risk of being taken to the cleaners. We can't quantify that risk though.
            Assuming two outside contracts, how are you going to get taken to the cleaners if you've delivered as per expectations. The client would have to show loss/impact. They can't even claim timesheet fraud if you've really done the 75 hours/week (assuming you log hours).

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              #26
              Originally posted by ConsultingTechArchitect View Post

              Assuming two outside contracts, how are you going to get taken to the cleaners if you've delivered as per expectations. The client would have to show loss/impact. They can't even claim timesheet fraud if you've really done the 75 hours/week (assuming you log hours).
              We are never going to get agreement here because we are talking too generally. Blaster and myself are absolutely right for a client that expects a days work regardless and you are right where a client just wants X and doesn't care what it takes. So we are both right and both wrong. We can keep too'ing and fro'ing until the cows come home. Just on your point above though, I'd argue in a lot of these cases the contractor doesn't expect to do 75 hours a week. They are wanting to double bill because they aren't that busy. Even if some of them land it I'd be willing to bet it will fall apart pretty quickly. People have admitted to as much in some threads so we have the evidence.

              That aside....

              The issue here is the expectation. Now a vast majority of clients pay X per day and expect a days work. They can be flexible on times as it's WFH and professional working day but they will, without a doubt be pissed off if they find their contractor has done the work in half a day and is moonlighting it. As I said, poor contractor management, mostly lead by WFH enabling the contractor to give the client full visibility. We aren't yet in a world where the client wants X delivering for Y price. It's just no where near reality. Most clients want a days work at X per day to achieve the goal. Period. Only doing 20 hours work on a 40 hour billing week does not meet there expectations in any way shape or form. Your average Joe contractor that is eyeing up double billing because they can get away with it is almost certainly in this camp.

              Yes, there are clients that want X delivering but again, the expectation is what they are paying is somewhat reasonable and the contractor can negotiate, be open and honest and deliver by mutual agreement. That allows them to do the same with client two. In these cases many of them are not outright double billing either. As we've seen in these threads there are a few of those here with happy clients and making good money but these are experienced contractors that have spotted the opportunity, been able to do proper business and get themselves in this position. Not one of the threads I've seen about two contracts has demonstrated that type of contractor. They've all been the ones in the paragraph above which is exactly why we are so negative on it. It always comes down to the same thing as the thread progresses. Can you tell your clients? No, then you are acting against the expectations of your client.

              The difference I see is when a contractor thinks he's bee's knees, can deliver two 40 hours a week contracts and get away with it. I'd say that contractor has forgotten what the client expects in his/her/their greed. It's just self justification and if you got all these contractors and clients round a table to discuss the actually situation I'll bet everything I have the feathers would start flying. Don't try justify it to us though. If you can do it and you know full well you are taking the piss out of the client then just be honest you are rather than preaching a justifiable business model that both clients are happy with.

              So as I say, yes, you are right... in some cases, but wrong in most in the current climate. And yes we are right in most cases we have seen, but wrong in some cases. It's all about the detail of the engagement and the negotiated expectation. It's not a one size fits all.


              Last edited by northernladuk; 30 June 2022, 16:51.
              'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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                #27
                Originally posted by ConsultingTechArchitect View Post

                Assuming two outside contracts, how are you going to get taken to the cleaners if you've delivered as per expectations. The client would have to show loss/impact. They can't even claim timesheet fraud if you've really done the 75 hours/week (assuming you log hours).
                It isn't just about delivery or primarily about legal risk, although I agree that delivery is important and failure to deliver whilst also breaking the contract could create a legal problem. If your work is niche and you get work through reputation, then you probably don't want a reputation for being a shady cretin. As I've said multiple times, if it's legitimate, then you will have no problem in being transparent about your (lack of) availability and all parties will be happy, fill yer boots, job done.

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                  #28
                  If they are two part time contracts or you are being paid on deliverables and can cope with both then knock yourself out. However the majority of contracts require a professional working day based round the standard office working day.

                  If it wasn't for work from home then it wouldn't be a consideration and I have certainly had contracts it would have been possible a lot of the time but equally at key times I wouldn't have been able to take myself off a contract to do anything else. Even now I have had to change plans to do something non work related when a contract demands it.

                  I am sure it is possible to work two full time contracts at once but equally I imagine you are constantly managing the situation.

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                    #29
                    Recent CUK article on the same theme:

                    https://www.contractoruk.com/news/00...k_at_desk.html

                    Comment


                      #30
                      The assertion is that Jonny Big Balls is such a terrifically skilled chap he can do his entire professional working day's work in the morning then another in the afternoon.
                      Now there are doubtless contracts where you can get away with that if you're good and they don't have particularly high expectations or pay much attention but the point is you are paid for your professional working day i.e. what you can do in a day. If that's twice what someone else can do, that's why you're a great person to hire.
                      If I hire a painter who is expensive but very good and fast, I don't expect them to bill me for a day and only do 3 hours "because I'm twice as fast" that's priced in to their rate.
                      Originally posted by MaryPoppins
                      I'd still not breastfeed a nazi
                      Originally posted by vetran
                      Urine is quite nourishing

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