Can I work both a Permanant and Contract Role?

[BlasterBates]

strictly speaking the LTD. company is misleading the client by over-charging. Which is a B2B dispute. To tip the balance into anything more serious has a huge burden of proof.

The very worse this gets is in a court where the client can prove the work hasn't been done as invoiced. And that will be the end of it.

Overcharging is not just a B2B dispute.

https://www.duncanlewis.co.uk/crime_...rch_2016).html

Sure for a few hours work no problem, but once this has gone on for a couple of years there are large sums involved.

[cannon999]

Yes it's possible. If your permie contract doesn't prevent you from working for other places then why the hell not? Just make sure your contract work is flexible in terms of timesheets and doesn't have ridiculous requirements like 9-5.

I know other people who have done this. They even got renewals..

[BlasterBates]

Yes it's possible. If your permie contract doesn't prevent you from working for other places then why the hell not? Just make sure your contract work is flexible in terms of timesheets and doesn't have ridiculous requirements like 9-5.

I know other people who have done this. They even got renewals..

Exactly, I think if you have a flexible contract and you can work on the contract in the evenings then go ahead. The occasional meeting during the day would be no problem.

[Lance]

Overcharging is not just a B2B dispute.

https://www.duncanlewis.co.uk/crime_...rch_2016).html

Sure for a few hours work no problem, but once this has gone on for a couple of years there are large sums involved.

That example isn't B2B. It's a trader ripping off consumers. And it's multiple customers. So not even close.

I stand by my original position that a LTD. company contractor, overcharging a single client, is only ever going to be civil proceedings, if it evens gets that far.

I take your point that if taken to extremes then it may eventually become a criminal investigation, but even then your example demonstrates that it needs to be a lot more extreme than this particular thread is discussing.

[northernladuk]

Exactly, I think if you have a flexible contract and you can work on the contract in the evenings then go ahead. The occasional meeting during the day would be no problem.

Not exactly at all. Permie employment is not flexible. Unless you are specifically allowed you'd be in breach of contract doing another clients work on a permie contract. It's stated in black and white in the contract you are their from 9 to 5, 40 hours or whatever. Working for someone else on that time is breach.

And we've said many times in this thread. If you are delivering to a SoW then yes, if you are contracted, employment or consulting, for x hours then you are done. It CAN be done but if you can't tell both parties you are doing it you are a slipper slope.

[jamesbrown]

It's a rare employment contract that doesn't include a restrictive covenant on exclusivity (zero hours contracts accepted, within which they have been illegal since 2015).

Whether it's civil/commercial or criminal, it's still fraud and only a total muppet would consider it; not the sort of person that could actually juggle two separate gigs in reality.

By all means, if no such clause exists, tell your employer (as a courtesy) and then fill yer boots, but the fact that you propose to hide it from your employer suggests that you're a clueless fraudster. HTH.

[BlasterBates]

That example isn't B2B. It's a trader ripping off consumers. And it's multiple customers. So not even close.

I stand by my original position that a LTD. company contractor, overcharging a single client, is only ever going to be civil proceedings, if it evens gets that far.

I take your point that if taken to extremes then it may eventually become a criminal investigation, but even then your example demonstrates that it needs to be a lot more extreme than this particular thread is discussing.

The seriousness of a fraud crime is dependent on how much you defrauded, not how many people you defrauded. If you earn double for the same amount of hours, that is 50 to 100 grand a year. Of course I take the point it is difficult to prove. But if you think this isn't serious go into a police station tell them you billed a client for 50 grand without doing any work and see what they have to say. If you're right they'll just snigger and slap you on the back.

[Lance]

The seriousness of a fraud crime is dependent on how much you defrauded, not how many people you defrauded. If you earn double for the same amount of hours, that is 50 to 100 grand a year. Of course I take the point it is difficult to prove. But if you think this isn't serious go into a police station tell them you billed a client for 50 grand without doing any work and see what they have to say. If you're right they'll just snigger and slap you on the back.

so being short of facts or evidence (clear or anecdotal) you fall back on rhetoric and speculation

How about ................ the client manager walks into a police station and says "a company has sold my employer some services and I believe they've overcharged £50k. I insist you charge them with fraud"....
You think the police are going to open a file, or are they going to tell the chap to "go and get a lawyer and stop wasting our time"?

[BlasterBates]

so being short of facts or evidence (clear or anecdotal) you fall back on rhetoric and speculation

How about ................ the client manager walks into a police station and says "a company has sold my employer some services and I believe they've overcharged £50k. I insist you charge them with fraud"....
You think the police are going to open a file, or are they going to tell the chap to "go and get a lawyer and stop wasting our time"?

Well that's exactly what the customers of the building company did.

Two clients walk into the police station and they both show timesheets with identical hours from the same person and the fact that they've both been billed for it.

What would they do then?

Perhaps they might point out they only investigate building companies.

[Lance]

Well that's exactly what the customers of the building company did.

Two clients walk into the police station and they both show timesheets with identical hours from the same person and the fact that they've both been billed for it.

What would they do then?

Perhaps they might point out they only investigate building companies.

"Consumers"......

Consumers have completely different legal recourses than businesses.