Supposedly outside IR35 contract, but work looks in?

[WTFH]

Good post.

Question for the more experienced people who have a long term relationship with their clients. Do you have a Master Contract and take multiple SOW's or do you do a contract for each project they offer you.

Question for you:
How does this tie up with your thread of 3 weeks ago?
https://forums.contractoruk.com/busi...ain-power.html

It feels like you're looking for answers either to a hypothetical situation that might not happen for several years (you've built up new business to a level that one employer sorry, customer, wants to use your services permanently, sorry, on a series of projects that roll on one from the other)
Or it's a specific situation where your current employer wants to take you on as a full time contractor.

[jojingles]

It ties up completely.

I have an outside determination from CEST and intend to get a QDOS based determination on the working practices and the contract (due to start in the new year). However I was employed by them as a General Manager to run the business. I am nervous about the IR35 implications noting this thread and that this is also the first contract I am doing.

Nothing shady going on, I thought that by having a written delivered (before starting) SDS confirming outside I would okay at I thought it was their issue if anything were to go wrong. Having now seen where this is heading I am concerned about possible issues.

I will be doing a number of bespoke projects which they do not have the skills in the business for from my premises over 150miles away from the business. Full control, substitution etc. will rest with me. I will also be providing general consultancy on an ad hoc basis for legal, technical and operational issues as they may arise but I am not in any way (in my eyes- HMRC may be different!!) being an employee. There are no set hours, no obligation of work etc.

My previous role will no longer exist, the people/departments I ran will be looked after but other managers and the work I will be doing is not the same as my previous role.

I am looking at how people may have structured contracts where they have longer term relationships. I appreciate this may not be what many people do but it is the situation I find myself in and so looking for advice.

I could just turn around and call it inside and get them to increase the rate but I do not intend for this to be my only contract I will be working on from a consultancy basis and it will not be full time so would prefer to use my limited company rather than have to use an umbrella.

You guys are a great source of knowledge, and for people like me just starting out, we need that support and advice so thank you.

[eek]

So it's a Friday to Monday transfer from being employed to being a "contractor"

Go inside it's really not worth the grief - if you had given that information originally we could have saved a lot of time.

[WTFH]

Sorry for all the questions, but you might find it's better that we ask them than the taxman...

How long since you stopped working for the company?
Have you worked for anyone since you left them?

Why are you getting the role, and not someone else? If it's not part of the role you were performing at the company then that would imply it's not something you're experienced in, so what makes you the best person for it?
If you had stayed on as an employee, would these projects have been something you might have done?

The question of the role being outside may not be relevant because you were formerly an employee.

[jojingles]

So it's a Friday to Monday transfer from being employed to being a "contractor"

Go inside it's really not worth the grief - if you had given that information originally we could have saved a lot of time.

eek- Not disagreeing or being inflammatory but how is this so?

Aside from working for the company nothing about it is inside IR35. If I did the same for company B (which I will be doing as I grow the business) then it would be outside so just really confused.

Surely it is based on working practices and the contract, yes previous employment is a factor but surely not the overall determining factor regardless of everything else.

If it is then so be it, but it seems the "Friday to Monday" is just a wide net. If I was going full time or not doing other work at the same time then I could understand it being that situation.

I was quite relaxed about it before this thread as I thought the liability would sit with them anyway but it seems to have changed from what I am reading.

I will get the QDOS review done as I am halfway down that path anyway and see what they say, almost makes you feel it's just not worth it as you say.

Thanks for your input.

[WTFH]

Aside from working for the company nothing about it is inside IR35. If I did the same for company B (which I will be doing as I grow the business) then it would be outside so just really confused.

You've already stated you're expecting to have a long series of contracts with your current employer:

Question for the more experienced people who have a long term relationship with their clients. Do you have a Master Contract and take multiple SOW's or do you do a contract for each project they offer you.

So, trying to justify your move by saying "but some time in the future, maybe in several years, I might have to go out looking for a new customer", that's not something HMRC will accept.

Let's list the issues:
1. You currently work for the company and are leaving to come back as a contractor
2. You expect the work with this company to last for a long period of time (24 month rule?)
3. You don't expect to work anywhere else in the short term
4. You already know all this before leaving the company.
5. You are hoping that if/when HMRC come to call, they will ignore your previous employment, and any "master contract", but only look at an individual SOW
6. You are hoping that you can word the contract and do the CEST for the company, so that it suits you
7. You are hoping that the company is prepared to accept responsibility for an ex-employee filling out paperwork for them.

[northernladuk]

You've already stated you're expecting to have a long series of contracts with your current employer:



So, trying to justify your move by saying "but some time in the future, maybe in several years, I might have to go out looking for a new customer", that's not something HMRC will accept.

Let's list the issues:
1. You currently work for the company and are leaving to come back as a contractor
2. You expect the work with this company to last for a long period of time (24 month rule?)
3. You don't expect to work anywhere else in the short term
4. You already know all this before leaving the company.
5. You are hoping that if/when HMRC come to call, they will ignore your previous employment, and any "master contract", but only look at an individual SOW
6. You are hoping that you can word the contract and do the CEST for the company, so that it suits you
7. You are hoping that the company is prepared to accept responsibility for an ex-employee filling out paperwork for them.

I have to agree. I do read the bit about bespoke projects, full control, RoS which all sounds nice but I can't help thinking this is closer to part and parcel than proper outside engagement. The ad hoc consultancy through a different set of eyes just looks like Direction and Control. You are allowed to do this because you are known so you get on with it. Many permies could list the same benefits (bar Ros maybe) as there is some ambiguity to what it really means. Full control could mean a host of different things to different people and all could claim this.

To the OP the list sounds like outside, to the casual reader it could just look like a level of comfort and part and parcel rather than a true business engagement. Easy to try justify from your position but looks like something else to another person.

The above starts a little bit of smoke but the previous engagement adds a splash of petrol and whoosh, up it goes. Hence our take on this that is at odds with yours.

[jojingles]

All great points.

I can see how this could be viewed/ interpreted by people as something it is not intended to be and so the safest option here is to go inside.

I can use my limited company for other contracts. I am building a consultancy business not looking to just contract with my previous employers. It was just a good way to have some money coming in while I got going. it is just a bit annoying to have to run this inside of it when all others will be outside as they will be project specific with deliverables etc. or specific consultancy.

Really appreciate your patience with me!