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Confirm I should leave after ir35 change

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    Confirm I should leave after ir35 change

    Well it been a while since I was on the boards! Anyway have been on a role outside ir35 for about 2.5 years. When the first private sector ir35 date came along I was assessed and given an outside sds then the date was delayed a year. Great it backed up my working practices. Same in March got another outside sds when the official date ir35 came along. So I'm good and dandy
    fast forward to the summer and some person in finance has decided although they ran the tests and it came out as outside again I've been around a bit so I'm getting an inside sds when my contract needs renewing in a month or so. My client manager has tried to call this out but he's been told basically anyone outside has been managed to inside just because it gives them a warm feeling so get used to it.

    My first thought is to ditch them when the contract ends. I work independently at the clients customer site on my own doing my own thing with my own tools and there won't be any change in working practices if I stayed on. I'm right to run aren't I? And pick up a new (probably "inside") contract but at least I've got the clean break.

    #2
    If i was in your position i would leave.

    But if you want to stay. Tell them not to give you any SDS in writing. Tell them to mandate the use of an umbrella company in your contract (ie bar you from using your own Ltd).

    That way you will be at least be in the same situation as all those who went from outside to umbrella in April.


    Last edited by Fraidycat; 19 August 2021, 18:09.

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      #3
      If they've decided you are inside with no real change to your working practices it's going to be extremely difficult for you to prove you've not been inside all along so a massive risk to stay on.

      If you have been around awhile as you say then time to go before you get the SDS and shafted by your client for sure. Your exposure will be significant if you happen to lose.
      Last edited by northernladuk; 19 August 2021, 19:26.
      'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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        #4
        Originally posted by Fraidycat View Post
        But if you want to stay. Tell them not to give you any SDS in writing. Tell them to mandate the use of an umbrella company in your contract (ie bar you from using your own Ltd).
        If they don't have a blanket ban that's not going to stand up to any kind of scrutiny so pointless.
        That way you will be at least be in the same situation as all those who went from outside to umbrella in April.
        But he isn't as it's a sham. And remember, all those with Inside SDS's also technically went from outside to umbrella. I get what you are trying to say but that bolded statement isn't quite correct. That's just the outcome which is also the same for most inside people.
        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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          #5
          If it's a good rate and enjoyable work then take the Inside extension and look for something else if you're worried.

          However, there are thousands upon thousands of contractors who went from Outside to Inside doing the exact same role as they were before who haven't been found out, and the actual chances of you being collared for it are miniscule despite what some oddballs on here might tell you.

          If HMRC were serious about it they'd go after all the large financial service organisations with towers full of long-term permie contractors who are now Inside. Go for it.

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            #6
            Originally posted by ensignia View Post
            However, there are thousands upon thousands of contractors who went from Outside to Inside doing the exact same role as they were before who haven't been found out, and the actual chances of you being collared for it are miniscule despite what some oddballs on here might tell you.
            You have a point but just to put a negative spin on it. They haven't been found out yet. We aren't long after the changes were implemented and the Glaxo letters were a bit of a wake up call. Slightly different but still shows HMRC can do it. We don't know whats going to happen in the next few years. Govts got a covid black hole to fill so who knows what they will pick on. And yes, probably right it's miniscule but if he's been there awhile the fall out could easily be in six figures.

            Contracts come and go and there seem to be enough around as the merry go round continues so IMO getting comfy in a contract with risks when there are plenty out there isn't the way forward, not for me anyway. That one is done, just go get another which is what we do.
            If HMRC were serious about it they'd go after all the large financial service organisations with towers full of long-term permie contractors who are now Inside. Go for it.
            They went after Glaxo. Also most financial orgs have banned PSC's so they aren't the low hanging fruits we think they are.

            Fair points but there are also some strong arguments against it. For me the best route is to remove the risk by doing what contractors do. It's gonna come to an end at some point soon so why not just use this as the end point and go? Seems sensless to me to stay and open yourself to needless risk when it's something a long term contractor will do many times over.

            Maybe the OP should have a sniff at the market and put feelers out. If they feel the market is bouyant and their are opportunities then happy days, off they go. If there isn't and they can't afford to be on the bench for a period then they've got to stay.... and do something about not being able to be on the bench.
            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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              #7
              Sorry I meant to come back but thanks for the replies. Have a decent warchest so I'm not too fussy about the time off if it happens. Have had a look about and seems quite busy out there so it might be time for a change. Like you say better to nip the option of being picked up in a future money grab off now from HMRC. Not like you can trust them not to change their minds when they need to find the next easy target!

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                #8
                I would say the greatest risk is actually with your end client - are they going to retrospectively pay the tax from April 5th onwards or are they praying that HMRC won't come calling (because they will).

                As for your case, as you are fully aware you need to leave NOW as any claim you were inside could open a whole world of retrospective pain, which the end client is also going to suffer from being stupid - see HMRC's attack on DWP and the Home Office for some of the details.
                merely at clientco for the entertainment

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by ensignia View Post
                  If it's a good rate and enjoyable work then take the Inside extension and look for something else if you're worried.

                  However, there are thousands upon thousands of contractors who went from Outside to Inside doing the exact same role as they were before who haven't been found out, and the actual chances of you being collared for it are miniscule despite what some oddballs on here might tell you.

                  If HMRC were serious about it they'd go after all the large financial service organisations with towers full of long-term permie contractors who are now Inside. Go for it.
                  It's a possibility but so was moving your money to an off shore trust fund and being paid in loans. They are already going for large organisations starting with Government departments who have had longer to get there house in order as the legislation hit them first. Do not assume they won't be going for the private sector in the next few years they are just fine tuning the investigations inhouse first.

                  Personally my notice and execution of MOO and refusing any more work due to the clients action would be the next steps as soon as that determination was given to me.
                  Make Mercia Great Again!

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by BlueSharp View Post

                    It's a possibility but so was moving your money to an off shore trust fund and being paid in loans. They are already going for large organisations starting with Government departments who have had longer to get there house in order as the legislation hit them first. Do not assume they won't be going for the private sector in the next few years they are just fine tuning the investigations inhouse first.

                    Personally my notice and execution of MOO and refusing any more work due to the clients action would be the next steps as soon as that determination was given to me.
                    And again.....This is not MoO (or lack of). Given work, do work, get paid is part of the T&M contract, during which there are obligations in place. MoO is about the obligation to give or accept work beyond the scope of the current contract, either during or after.

                    But you are right. If the OP knows an inside decision is coming they are already at risk.
                    Last edited by northernladuk; 20 August 2021, 15:49.
                    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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