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Renew or leg it

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    Renew or leg it

    Hi Folks I think a few of us are in this position....
    Been with the same firm for a number of years as a PSC. I insure myself, control work myself, have substitution in the contract and have no obligation either way that renewals are guaranteed or expected. Along with a number of other points I consider myself outside but the firm I am working for has thrown everyone under the IR35 bus without any individual assessments whatsoever and we must all go umbrella from April.
    I've read the contract and it says the same as it did before, just now being signed by the umbrella as I would work for them going forward.
    I'm minded to leave - a) been there too long and b) client doesn't really care about contract individuals and have generally acted quite poorly causing a huge risk to its contract workforce.
    What are you guys doing?
    I've already had the convo with the boss that I think its too risky to stay. I can't live with the stress of worrying about investigations through no fault of my own.

    Also insurances - I don't need insurance if I go umbrella as they will provide it at whichever client I go to....so does insurance for investigations cover you for only the 12months it was active or can you go back and use a policy you paid for if required in future because that was covering the period that any investigation looks at?
    I understand this kind of insurance is a bit like a wet paper bag....so just checking.

    I'm finding this rather stressful and will make myself jobless than risk a look by HMRC for going outside to inside. I don't want to as I enjoy where I work and work I've done there, but this is a huge risk in my mind (and sadly I know this might not keep that risk away although maybe minimise it). However there seems to be noone to give advice on this!!
    Others at work are saying HMRC are too busy looking at bigger fraud but I don't think that will stop them. Most seem to be staying but looking immediately for alternative work to minimise risk. Surely its more sensible to renew and look to keep the funds coming in?! We all have bills to pay.

    Mucho gracias

    #2
    Have they said you are inside IR35 or have they stated that they won't allow the use of PSCs going forward?

    If the former have they done role or individual assessments or not done any at all?
    Last edited by eek; 17 March 2021, 16:33.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bonerp View Post
      Hi Folks I think a few of us are in this position....
      Been with the same firm for a number of years as a PSC. I insure myself, control work myself, have substitution in the contract and have no obligation either way that renewals are guaranteed or expected. Along with a number of other points I consider myself outside but the firm I am working for has thrown everyone under the IR35 bus without any individual assessments whatsoever and we must all go umbrella from April.
      I've read the contract and it says the same as it did before, just now being signed by the umbrella as I would work for them going forward.
      I'm minded to leave - a) been there too long and b) client doesn't really care about contract individuals and have generally acted quite poorly causing a huge risk to its contract workforce.
      What are you guys doing?
      I've already had the convo with the boss that I think its too risky to stay. I can't live with the stress of worrying about investigations through no fault of my own.

      Also insurances - I don't need insurance if I go umbrella as they will provide it at whichever client I go to....so does insurance for investigations cover you for only the 12months it was active or can you go back and use a policy you paid for if required in future because that was covering the period that any investigation looks at?
      I understand this kind of insurance is a bit like a wet paper bag....so just checking.

      I'm finding this rather stressful and will make myself jobless than risk a look by HMRC for going outside to inside. I don't want to as I enjoy where I work and work I've done there, but this is a huge risk in my mind (and sadly I know this might not keep that risk away although maybe minimise it). However there seems to be noone to give advice on this!!
      Others at work are saying HMRC are too busy looking at bigger fraud but I don't think that will stop them. Most seem to be staying but looking immediately for alternative work to minimise risk. Surely its more sensible to renew and look to keep the funds coming in?! We all have bills to pay.

      Mucho gracias
      can you afford the benchtime while looking?
      If so then leave. There's plenty of other inside IR35 work coming up.
      See You Next Tuesday

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Bonerp View Post
        Hi Folks I think a few of us are in this position....
        Been with the same firm for a number of years as a PSC.
        Has the client determined your role inside, or just stopped working with PSCs?

        How many years is "a number of years" and what financial risk does that expose you to if HMRC did come calling as ask for all the taxes for all those years?

        And, despite what you say about contract clauses etc, are you 100% confident, having been there for a number of years, that HMRC would lose a case if they brought it against you?

        The answer to those questions would be the major factors in my decision.

        If the client has determined your role inside, then "Surely its more sensible to renew and look to keep the funds coming in?" is a risk - stay there even 1 day in the same role after receiving an inside determination means (in HMRC's eyes) you were inside all along. If you do that, you might as well stick around thereafter.
        Last edited by Paralytic; 17 March 2021, 17:29.

        Comment


          #5
          first of all HMRC said that they won't be investigating those who switch from outside to inside IR35 unless there was fraud or crime etc here on 2nd point: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ing-rules-ir35


          also just because the client puts you inside IR35 , doesn't mean that they are right. It could be that they are being conservative, or the CEST tool gave them wrong result and the contract should have been deemed outside IR35.

          moreover it could be that the way you work with them has changed now. so hmrc can't argue that you been inside all along, just because the company thinks it is inside now.
          Last edited by michaelC; 17 March 2021, 19:45.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by michaelC View Post
            first of all HMRC said that they won't be investigating those who switch from outside to inside IR35 unless there was fraud or crime etc.
            Want a bridge?

            ( As an aside, I can't see how they would distinguish between fraud and not fraud without investigating. )

            Anyway, even if you believe that, there are all the ordinary routes to getting investigated - the usual compliance checks etc. They aren't going to stop IR35 enforcement in general and they are increasing headcount. If you happen to be in their ordinary bucket of investigations, then... you're out of luck. You're right that the client's opinion is not absolutely definitive, but it matters quite a lot unless you've compiled excellent evidence that contradicts it.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post


              ( As an aside, I can't see how they would distinguish between fraud and not fraud without investigating. )
              they mean a reason to suspect fraud. Deciding that a contract is off IR35 rules when it should have been, is not fraud, but a mistake of judgement.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by michaelC View Post

                they mean a reason to suspect fraud. Deciding that a contract is off IR35 rules when it should have been, is not fraud, but a mistake of judgement.
                A "reason to suspect it" is very woolly indeed and almost anything could fit within that subjective category. Once you've been around a while, you'll become equally cynical about the differences between what they say and what they intend and how their intentions can change; we've seen it all before. The real risk will depend on how busy they are policing the new rules, not what they've said about one thing or another (which can never be taken at face value because it always leaves massive wiggle room).

                Comment


                  #9
                  I would tell them I am off. In fact I did exactly this the first time this was supposed to happen and clientco were mucking about not making a proper decision.
                  By the time they had announced their PSC ban, I had already left - although I tended to be at any client for less than a year as I do implementations.

                  What isn't clear from your post is exactly what your client has said - it looks like a PSC ban - is that what it is?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post

                    A "reason to suspect it" is very woolly indeed and almost anything could fit within that subjective category. Once you've been around a while, you'll become equally cynical about the differences between what they say and what they intend and how their intentions can change; we've seen it all before. The real risk will depend on how busy they are policing the new rules, not what they've said about one thing or another (which can never be taken at face value because it always leaves massive wiggle room).
                    It's worth emphasising that for those of us who know how HMRC works - both JamesBrown and myself looked at what HMRC said and instantly picked up on the careful phrasing that left an awful lot of leeway for HMRC should they desire it.

                    For instance HMRC say they will not open an enquiry - but that doesn't stop them doing rather scary fishing expeditions first ala their previous GSK letter.
                    merely at clientco for the entertainment

                    Comment

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