Brexit/IR35 and Working Abroad

[DaaaaaaaaaaN]

Sorry to hijack the thread - I have been offered a remote contract for a UK company. It will be fully remote working from Dublin and I will be using an Irish umbrella company. I assume IR35 does not apply given I will be an Irish tax resident?

[Lance]

Sorry to hijack the thread - I have been offered a remote contract for a UK company. It will be fully remote working from Dublin and I will be using an Irish umbrella company. I assume IR35 does not apply given I will be an Irish tax resident?

time for some very basic research.....
No IR35 doesn't apply as it's a British law.
No it doesn't apply as you're using an umbrella, not an intermediary.

Why would you use an umbrella anyway? Did you have a choice?

and why hijack this thread when you have one less than a month old on the same subject? https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...t=#post2856039

[DaaaaaaaaaaN]

time for some very basic research.....
No IR35 doesn't apply as it's a British law.
No it doesn't apply as you're using an umbrella, not an intermediary.

Why would you use an umbrella anyway? Did you have a choice?

and why hijack this thread when you have one less than a month old on the same subject? https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...t=#post2856039

Going through an umbrella out of convenience as I don't know how long I will keep contracting for, the monthly fees are quite low so its not much of an issue. Based on my research and dicussions with a couple of accountants, the retention rates in Ireland between umbrella and Ltd routes are not too different, IMO its not enough to warrant the additional overhead of managing a Ltd company anyway.

As for why I hijacked the thread, I didn't expect anyone to notice really. Kudos to you and your eagle eyes.

[northernladuk]

Going through an umbrella out of convenience as I don't know how long I will keep contracting for, the monthly fees are quite low so its not much of an issue. Based on my research and dicussions with a couple of accountants, the retention rates in Ireland between umbrella and Ltd routes are not too different, IMO its not enough to warrant the additional overhead of managing a Ltd company anyway.

As for why I hijacked the thread, I didn't expect anyone to notice really. Kudos to you and your eagle eyes.

Had your ass handed to you there didn't you

[DaaaaaaaaaaN]

Had your ass handed to you there didn't you

That I did, although I commend his attention to detail. Its a refreshing change from the incessant nonsense of Reddit or Twitter.

[PharmaContractor]

There are no Waffles in the UK

So my UK Ltd may have a client in Belgium who operates as "Waffles Belgium NV". My Ltd would have a direct contract with them and no agency involvement. All work my Ltd performs would be here in the UK.

"Waffles" is a large global corporation with operations across the world and the UK. In the UK they are known and operate under "Waffles UK Ltd"

The business unit within "Waffles Belgium NV" I will be working for has no equivalent business unit here in the UK. Waffles HQ is in Switz like most large corps, but that is irrelevant in this case I believe.

So from QDOSFurther clarification regarding overseas clients - Qdos:

Since the reform has been finalised and announced within the 2020 Finance Bill, there has been further clarification regarding overseas clients. Within the guidance last updated in March 2020, it is stated where a client is based wholly overseas the off-payroll working rules do not apply. The PSC will be responsible for determining if the rules apply. For a client to be considered ‘wholly overseas’, they must not have a UK connection immediately before the beginning of the tax year. The client will have a UK connection if you either:

- Are resident in the UK
- Have a permanent establishment in the UK
As defined at section 1141 Corporation Tax Act 2010, a ‘permanent establishment’ includes a fixed place of business such as a branch, office, or a factory.

So it's up to me as the PSC to decide whether the client UK has a UK presence?

The Belgium outfit is known as "Waffles Belgium NV" and has no UK presence and has no representation in the UK.

[Lance]

So it's up to me as the PSC to decide whether the client UK has a UK presence?

No. Where did you get that interpretation from?

If they have a UK presence, and offer an outside IR35 gig, then in theory they have made the determination and are responsible for it. They may or may not know this though.
So whatever happens you should perform your own due diligence.

As for who determines whether they have a UK presence? If they do have one it's up to them. If they don't have one it's up to nobody as it's beyond the jurisdiction of UK law.


It's hard to say exactly how this will work. It's not been tested in law yet, but given your description it sounds like they do have a presence. What contract have they offered you? Or is this all totally speculative?

[jamesbrown]

The Belgium outfit is known as "Waffles Belgium NV" and has no UK presence and has no representation in the UK.

Again, the legislative term is "UK connection", but QDOS have faithfully reproduced section 60I of chapter 8, part 2 of the ITEPA.

It is what it is. The definition of "UK connection" is clear. What more do you want?

If there is a company with a UK connection above the PSC, then they are responsible and liable (as the designated Fee Payer). If there isn't, then YourCo is responsible and liable.

If you don't trust the supply chain, a belt and braces approach would be sensible.

Btw, having a fully overseas supply chain (no UK connection) doesn't really save you under investigation. The burden of proof is on YourCo.

[PharmaContractor]

No. Where did you get that interpretation from?

"The PSC will be responsible for determining if the rules apply"


I have seen the contracts that they dish out and the do appear to cover their own interests nicely (stating it's up to PSC to pay all taxes, socials etc amongst other items such as PSC being responsible for working hours, responsible for paying compensation if work carried out does not meet expectations, able to substitute etc).

But yeah, like I state Waffles Belgium NV does not exist in UK. It all depends on interpretation.

Problem is with EU clients is that you are simply going to scare them off with IR35. They'll go for a local EU outfit rather than a problematic UK Ltd.

[PharmaContractor]

Again, the legislative term is "UK connection", but QDOS have faithfully reproduced section 60I of chapter 8, part 2 of the ITEPA.

It is what it is. The definition of "UK connection" is clear. What more do you want?

If there is a company with a UK connection above the PSC, then they are responsible and liable (as the designated Fee Payer). If there isn't, then YourCo is responsible and liable.

If you don't trust the supply chain, a belt and braces approach would be sensible.

Btw, having a fully overseas supply chain (no UK connection) doesn't really save you under investigation. The burden of proof is on YourCo.

It is what it is? That's helpful. UK connection clear? Not really.

Nothing clear about this at all IMHO. Yes, realise that it will all fall on my Ltd, so will ensure that the contract I have with them is as IR35-proof as I can get it, though I suspect they will be reluctant to change clauses that need tweaking.