How can we fight back against Infosys, TCS and other Indian consultancies?

[jamesbrown]

If a client wants to simply go through InfoySys they could have done that without the IR35 change. It's just nonsense to suggest it's too much effort to do due diligence when you can simply declare it inside IR35 when you call the agent.

Faffing around with IR35 status determination statements that are conducted per individual and require a paper trail of due diligence (there is a grey area between "role" and "individual", but they cannot be conducted in an obviously blanket away), together with the mandated client appeals process, isn't really worth the effort. If they want people on a payroll, they will put the workers on their own payroll (less likely) or shove the hassle off to someone else's payroll (umbrella, agency PAYE, employed consultant). There's nothing trivial about declaring someone inside when you're a large client with a risk and compliance dept. and have other regulatory responsibilities. Too much scope for hassle down the line. Kill the risk.

[LondonManc]

If a client wants to simply go through InfoySys they could have done that without the IR35 change. It's just nonsense to suggest it's too much effort to do due diligence when you can simply declare it inside IR35 when you call the agent.

You really think that's more nonsense than blanket bans and other panic tactics that they've adopted rather than going through contract-by-contract?

[BlasterBates]

Faffing around with IR35 status determination statements that are conducted per individual and require a paper trail of due diligence (there is a grey area between "role" and "individual", but they cannot be conducted in an obviously blanket away), together with the mandated client appeals process, isn't really worth the effort. If they want people on a payroll, they will put the workers on their own payroll (less likely) or shove the hassle off to someone else's payroll (umbrella, agency PAYE, employed consultant). There's nothing trivial about declaring someone inside when you're a large client with a risk and compliance dept. and have other regulatory responsibilities. Too much scope for hassle down the line. Kill the risk.

Yes I understand that, but whether they use Infosys or OrdinaryPreferredAgency makes no difference. Companies have always used a reduced list if suppliers to reduce their paperwork. This has been working perfectly OK in the public sector. Yes it's clear the rules mean blanket determination, that's the whole point of the legislation. But what it doesn't do is give InfoSys some specific advantage over OrdinaryBigPreferredAgency Ltd.

[LondonManc]

Yes I understand that, but whether they use Infosys or OrdinaryPreferredAgency makes no difference. Companies have always used a reduced list if suppliers to reduce their paperwork. This has been working perfectly OK in the public sector. Yes it's clear the rules mean blanket determination, that's the whole point of the legislation. But what it doesn't do is give InfoSys some specific advantage over OrdinaryBigPreferredAgency Ltd.

But this is moot at the moment - Infosys will happily take you on right now as outside then bin you off next March to avoid the risk themselves. After that, Infosys will be purely IR35 for contractors - you can bet that their model won't allow for risk.

[Lance]

Yes I understand that, but whether they use Infosys or OrdinaryPreferredAgency makes no difference. Companies have always used a reduced list if suppliers to reduce their paperwork. This has been working perfectly OK in the public sector. Yes it's clear the rules mean blanket determination, that's the whole point of the legislation. But what it doesn't do is give InfoSys some specific advantage over OrdinaryBigPreferredAgency Ltd.

Indeed. And if the latter agency has better quality people then they’ll get the business. It’s pretty simple really.

And if a client has hundreds or thousands of contractors, and they don’t actually know what they’re doing or can’t be bothered to find out, then the contractors are probably inside anyway. Just bums on seats.

There’s still a market left. It’s just removing the ability for wingers to carry on winging it.

[BlasterBates]

But this is moot at the moment - Infosys will happily take you on right now as outside then bin you off next March to avoid the risk themselves. After that, Infosys will be purely IR35 for contractors - you can bet that their model won't allow for risk.

Is InfoSys any worse or better than any other company. Probably not, the reviews I've seen are OK.

[SussexSeagull]

I don't think clients getting in individual contractors - admittedly on different terms - or a large consultancy has been greatly influenced by the IR35 changes.

[Brussels Slumdog]

If Indian consultancies are thrown out they will simply be replaced by Eastern European suppliers. When I was in in Switzerland they gave up on their Indian supplier and switched to companies in Ukraine. The last company I worked for employed remote contractors via a company in Romania.

I bet these East Europeans speak better English.

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[Brussels Slumdog]

The European approach is quite simple. I have never worked on a project in the Netherlands where no-one spoke English but most SAP jobs now suddenly require Dutch.
I keep getting emails from Indian agencies for jobs in Germany as they can't find Indian German speakers and the Germans can get better rates.

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[LondonManc]

Is InfoSys any worse or better than any other company. Probably not, the reviews I've seen are OK.

We're using Infosys because of its position of apparent privilege but the sentiment stretches to TCS, WiPro and beyond. As one Indian guy on Canary Wharf put it to me, he wouldn't outsource to Indian bodyshops. The reasons being that all the best Indian staff are either in California, New York, London or a big tech co (Google, MS, etc) in their Indian centres. All decent IT bods not in those have switched to engineering because there are big internal projects going on in India. By his reckoning, your standard TCS bod is now an ex-call centre person googling their way through your code.