PI/PL insurance safety critical software

[mb31]

...

Anyway, I digress and this is a contracting forum mainly for IT people but I can't find anything remotely similar in my field (which does include software assurance, I figure that must count).

I'm pissed off that no one, not even on the London market, is willing to offer me PI/PL insurance. Surely developers work can't be that bad.

As for the newbies. Where are they?

[GhostofTarbera]

...

Anyway, I digress and this is a contracting forum mainly for IT people but I can't find anything remotely similar in my field (which does include software assurance, I figure that must count).

I'm pissed off that no one, not even on the London market, is willing to offer me PI/PL insurance. Surely developers work can't be that bad.

As for the newbies. Where are they?

Welcome BrilloPad, NotAllThere, BR14, NLUK, GhostofTarbera and cojak. You'll have to do. This is a friendly, informative forum and so on and so forth.

Why can’t you get insurance ?


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

[mb31]

because my consultancy service includes auditing of software and complex hardware developments for nuclear reactor protection systems. I spoke to a friend who is a leader of the field in safety critical software on manned aircraft. He's been contracting for years and can't get insurance either. From what I've seen people take out "a policy" knowing full well that there are applicable exclusions but they need the insurance to satisfy a clause in their contract. My civil aero friend has had some success at getting PI/PL clauses removed.

[NotAllThere]

A few posts moved as there is an apparently serious question buried there somewhere.

[Acme Thunderer]

because my consultancy service includes auditing of software and complex hardware developments for nuclear reactor protection systems. I spoke to a friend who is a leader of the field in safety critical software on manned aircraft. He's been contracting for years and can't get insurance either. From what I've seen people take out "a policy" knowing full well that there are applicable exclusions but they need the insurance to satisfy a clause in their contract. My civil aero friend has had some success at getting PI/PL clauses removed.

You have a combination of 2 high-risk items there, safety critical and nuclear. For most of use even if we make a complete pigs ear of something it won't result in anyone dying, add nuclear to that and the potential for injury is huge along with the cost of any clean-up. I imagine even a small incident with a nuclear reactor could easily cost the £10 million liability. Even if your premium was several thousand pounds it wouldn't be worth the risk to the underwriters.

I did have situation where I had to be working close to a newly commissioned nuclear reactor. I had to change my insurance provider to Caunce O'Hara because everyone else excluded nuclear incidents. My work had nothing to do with the hot glowing thing so may be no good for you.

[mb31]

Thanks Acme Thunderer, it's more of an eerie blue light than a hot glow.

I've seen a lot of adverts for Sellafield contractors recently and they're all umbrella only. I wonder how the umbrellas deal with this particular issue?

It could be a role specific problem rather than industry wide. Caunce O'Hara wanted a copy of my CV to send to their underwriters and they've not turned me down yet so fingers crossed. One of the brokers at another company laughed down the phone when I said my contract stipulates £1m for both PI and PL cover.

[Lance]

I think you're over thinking this.
You're a developer of software. You need £1M PI insurance. Just buy it as a developer from QDOS.

Nothing about the safety critical nature of the industry can move their liability to you.
Take your Sellafield example. Their safety critical software is their responsibility.
Your PI cover is protection against what you programme. Just make sure that they test before going live.

A banking contractor would not expect to indemnify the entire banking industry against a financial crisis.

[smatty]

Agree with the above, you'll just be auditing code against a spec. It's down to the license holder to verify the safety of the system they use it on. Your audit is just a small part of that overall chain.

The threats from human error and even things like insider attack are well recognised so nuclear industry would avoid any situation where a single external individual could be responsible for a safety system.

Systems like this would be independently verified, tested and reviewed in great detail. They'd look at everything from the supplier organisation, development processes, testing, specifications, etc. It's one reason why things can take so long and cost so much. Also why they're so hard to change once built and in-place.

[northernladuk]

...

Anyway, I digress and this is a contracting forum mainly for IT people but I can't find anything remotely similar in my field (which does include software assurance, I figure that must count).

I'm pissed off that no one, not even on the London market, is willing to offer me PI/PL insurance. Surely developers work can't be that bad.

As for the newbies. Where are they?

Pip in a poke and Freaki Li Cuatre liked to do that as well.

[BR14]

Agree with the above, you'll just be auditing code against a spec. It's down to the license holder to verify the safety of the system they use it on. Your audit is just a small part of that overall chain.

The threats from human error and even things like insider attack are well recognised so nuclear industry would avoid any situation where a single external individual could be responsible for a safety system.

Systems like this would be independently verified, tested and reviewed in great detail. They'd look at everything from the supplier organisation, development processes, testing, specifications, etc. It's one reason why things can take so long and cost so much. Also why they're so hard to change once built and in-place.

like the boeing 737 max anti-stall software??