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Previously on "PI/PL insurance safety critical software"

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  • NotAllThere
    replied
    If you talk to PI insurers who cover contractors, you'll find that no-one ever paid out. But why do you care whether you're actually covered, so long as you are within the terms of your contract'

    If you're going through a brolly, the brolly will be responsible. If you're going through your ltd co, then you really need to get a grip on what "limited liability" means.

    Anyway, you've got answers. I'm closing this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • mb31
    replied
    NLUK sadly the truth is nowhere near as intriguing as you suggest but I can see your logic there.

    Lance, I have a friend who works as a senior partner at one of these insurance companies. He told me that if I buy an off the shelf product against a generic job title then he doubts I'll be covered for my type of work. All insurance companies look for any excuse to avoid paying out.

    I couldn't really find a good fit in the drop down menus anyway so I gave a few companies a call and they asked questions like "could you give me an example of the work you'll be doing for the client?" I gave an honest answer like "I'm advising the client on how to address nuclear safety issues", The insurance brokers refuse to cover.

    My current approach is to send my CV and role description to the underwriters and it has paid off to some extent because Caunce O'Hara have been in touch with a reasonable quote. The only issue is that the role profile was fairly generic because the client wanted to strike an offer quickly against an existing advert. With hindsight I should have negotiated a higher rate but this is my first contract and at least I'm technically doing the right thing with the insurance. The role profile is the client's responsibility.

    smatty, you sound like you have some experience of working on the safety critical stuff. I don't have the skillset to develop software. In my permie role I provided independent nuclear safety assessment for systems and inevitably the CCFs and key reliability claims limits were tied in with the software and complex hardware. Consequently I had to delve into the software development life-cycle from planning through to integration. I generally review software artefacts against safety standards like BS EN 60880. My permie work was always overseen by the licensee and often the regulator too. You'd be surprised how rubbish the money was in comparison to the observers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Acme Thunderer
    replied
    Originally posted by mb31 View Post
    Thanks Acme Thunderer, it's more of an eerie blue light than a hot glow.

    I've seen a lot of adverts for Sellafield contractors recently and they're all umbrella only. I wonder how the umbrellas deal with this particular issue?

    .
    But it is quite hot and if you can see the glow you probably have a very big problem and are not worried about the colour.[emoji16]

    It is possible that the umbrella/agency is having it underwritten by end client themselves. Heard of that before when someone wanted to take a bunch of contractors to sea in a big black metal tube

    Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • BR14
    replied
    Originally posted by smatty View Post
    Agree with the above, you'll just be auditing code against a spec. It's down to the license holder to verify the safety of the system they use it on. Your audit is just a small part of that overall chain.

    The threats from human error and even things like insider attack are well recognised so nuclear industry would avoid any situation where a single external individual could be responsible for a safety system.

    Systems like this would be independently verified, tested and reviewed in great detail. They'd look at everything from the supplier organisation, development processes, testing, specifications, etc. It's one reason why things can take so long and cost so much. Also why they're so hard to change once built and in-place.
    like the boeing 737 max anti-stall software??

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by mb31 View Post
    ...

    Anyway, I digress and this is a contracting forum mainly for IT people but I can't find anything remotely similar in my field (which does include software assurance, I figure that must count).

    I'm pissed off that no one, not even on the London market, is willing to offer me PI/PL insurance. Surely developers work can't be that bad.

    As for the newbies. Where are they?
    Pip in a poke and Freaki Li Cuatre liked to do that as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • smatty
    replied
    Agree with the above, you'll just be auditing code against a spec. It's down to the license holder to verify the safety of the system they use it on. Your audit is just a small part of that overall chain.

    The threats from human error and even things like insider attack are well recognised so nuclear industry would avoid any situation where a single external individual could be responsible for a safety system.

    Systems like this would be independently verified, tested and reviewed in great detail. They'd look at everything from the supplier organisation, development processes, testing, specifications, etc. It's one reason why things can take so long and cost so much. Also why they're so hard to change once built and in-place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lance
    replied
    I think you're over thinking this.
    You're a developer of software. You need £1M PI insurance. Just buy it as a developer from QDOS.

    Nothing about the safety critical nature of the industry can move their liability to you.
    Take your Sellafield example. Their safety critical software is their responsibility.
    Your PI cover is protection against what you programme. Just make sure that they test before going live.

    A banking contractor would not expect to indemnify the entire banking industry against a financial crisis.

    Leave a comment:


  • mb31
    replied
    Thanks Acme Thunderer, it's more of an eerie blue light than a hot glow.

    I've seen a lot of adverts for Sellafield contractors recently and they're all umbrella only. I wonder how the umbrellas deal with this particular issue?

    It could be a role specific problem rather than industry wide. Caunce O'Hara wanted a copy of my CV to send to their underwriters and they've not turned me down yet so fingers crossed. One of the brokers at another company laughed down the phone when I said my contract stipulates £1m for both PI and PL cover.

    Leave a comment:


  • Acme Thunderer
    replied
    Originally posted by mb31 View Post
    because my consultancy service includes auditing of software and complex hardware developments for nuclear reactor protection systems. I spoke to a friend who is a leader of the field in safety critical software on manned aircraft. He's been contracting for years and can't get insurance either. From what I've seen people take out "a policy" knowing full well that there are applicable exclusions but they need the insurance to satisfy a clause in their contract. My civil aero friend has had some success at getting PI/PL clauses removed.
    You have a combination of 2 high-risk items there, safety critical and nuclear. For most of use even if we make a complete pigs ear of something it won't result in anyone dying, add nuclear to that and the potential for injury is huge along with the cost of any clean-up. I imagine even a small incident with a nuclear reactor could easily cost the £10 million liability. Even if your premium was several thousand pounds it wouldn't be worth the risk to the underwriters.

    I did have situation where I had to be working close to a newly commissioned nuclear reactor. I had to change my insurance provider to Caunce O'Hara because everyone else excluded nuclear incidents. My work had nothing to do with the hot glowing thing so may be no good for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotAllThere
    replied
    A few posts moved as there is an apparently serious question buried there somewhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • mb31
    replied
    because my consultancy service includes auditing of software and complex hardware developments for nuclear reactor protection systems. I spoke to a friend who is a leader of the field in safety critical software on manned aircraft. He's been contracting for years and can't get insurance either. From what I've seen people take out "a policy" knowing full well that there are applicable exclusions but they need the insurance to satisfy a clause in their contract. My civil aero friend has had some success at getting PI/PL clauses removed.
    Last edited by mb31; 24 November 2019, 22:17.

    Leave a comment:


  • GhostofTarbera
    replied
    Originally posted by mb31 View Post
    ...

    Anyway, I digress and this is a contracting forum mainly for IT people but I can't find anything remotely similar in my field (which does include software assurance, I figure that must count).

    I'm pissed off that no one, not even on the London market, is willing to offer me PI/PL insurance. Surely developers work can't be that bad.

    As for the newbies. Where are they?

    Welcome BrilloPad, NotAllThere, BR14, NLUK, GhostofTarbera and cojak. You'll have to do. This is a friendly, informative forum and so on and so forth.
    Why can’t you get insurance ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

    Leave a comment:


  • mb31
    started a topic PI/PL insurance safety critical software

    PI/PL insurance safety critical software

    ...

    Anyway, I digress and this is a contracting forum mainly for IT people but I can't find anything remotely similar in my field (which does include software assurance, I figure that must count).

    I'm pissed off that no one, not even on the London market, is willing to offer me PI/PL insurance. Surely developers work can't be that bad.

    As for the newbies. Where are they?
    Last edited by mb31; 25 November 2019, 10:13. Reason: Mod highlight of relevant question

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