Consultancies providing services to pulbic sector and contractors....

[psychocandy]

Another example, Janice, highlights the point that although a contractor may be involved with a public sector body during their work, if they do not have a contract with that organisation then the new rules cannot apply. Here, Janice’s own company is contracted by a building company to project manage the building of a new wing at a hospital managed by an NHS Trust. Although she has a degree of interaction with the Trust managers, who have an interest in her work, Janice’s contract is with a private company and therefore not in the public sector. As such, the off-payroll rules do not apply and Janice must consider whether or not IR35 applies. In making this decision she will be able to use the online Employment Status Service, should she choose to do so.

Hmm. Difficult one. How is this different to a contractor contracted to a consultancy providing IT services to a public sector?

In my case, yes I work on site at a public sector but I have minimal dealings with the public sector management. All dealings are with the consultancy people on site. And of course my contract via agency is with the consultancy...

[eek]

Another example, Janice, highlights the point that although a contractor may be involved with a public sector body during their work, if they do not have a contract with that organisation then the new rules cannot apply. Here, Janice’s own company is contracted by a building company to project manage the building of a new wing at a hospital managed by an NHS Trust. Although she has a degree of interaction with the Trust managers, who have an interest in her work, Janice’s contract is with a private company and therefore not in the public sector. As such, the off-payroll rules do not apply and Janice must consider whether or not IR35 applies. In making this decision she will be able to use the online Employment Status Service, should she choose to do so.

Hmm. Difficult one. How is this different to a contractor contracted to a consultancy providing IT services to a public sector?

In my case, yes I work on site at a public sector but I have minimal dealings with the public sector management. All dealings are with the consultancy people on site. And of course my contract via agency is with the consultancy...

The devil is in the detail and I'm not hunting for that this second....

However if you work on a project being managed by a 3rd party that isn't part of the day to day workings of the department as they currently work you are probably outside.
And a building company building a new wing definitely isn't part of the public sector its a building project managed by the supplier who is taking the risk...

[Lance]

it depends.
Does your consultancy provide services or people?
Are you a name on a list that the PS body is paying for?

Anyway. Aren't you inside IR35 to start with?

[psychocandy]

it depends.
Does your consultancy provide services or people?
Are you a name on a list that the PS body is paying for?

Anyway. Aren't you inside IR35 to start with?

Not privy to the contract between consultancy and organisation. I assume they provide a service though i.e. IT support between certain hours etc. I guess it depends on how the consultancy see fit with regards to people on site be they perm or contractor or offsite (both as it happens). Obviously the public sector knows whos on site (because of access etc) but they have no say in who or how many. I know that projects then are charged separately to the end client as well.

Yep IR35. VERY borderline for me I know. But thats a separate issue and not related to the coming changes.

[Lance]

I assume they provide a service though i.e. IT support between certain hours etc. I guess it depends on how the consultancy see fit with regards to people on site be they perm or contractor or offsite (both as it happens). Obviously the public sector knows whos on site (because of access etc) but they have no say in who or how many. I know that projects then are charged separately to the end client as well.

it's likely to be the decision of the PS body not the consultancy. But it raises an interesting point in that if the consultancy are providing a bunch of perms and contractors, and the PS body decides that all are outside ( the persm will be anyway as the consultancy will cover the PAYE/NICs) then you may be in luck.
We've seen a document but not the draft legislation so there are still some unknowns.

[MrMarkyMark]

Not privy to the contract between consultancy and organisation. I assume they provide a service though i.e. IT support between certain hours etc. I guess it depends on how the consultancy see fit with regards to people on site be they perm or contractor or offsite (both as it happens). Obviously the public sector knows whos on site (because of access etc) but they have no say in who or how many. I know that projects then are charged separately to the end client as well.

Yep IR35. VERY borderline for me I know. But thats a separate issue and not related to the coming changes.

Borderline now, you'll be redline come April

[northernladuk]

Forget that example and go look at the others. There is another which is much more similar to what we do. The same with web developer. You can't pick one you think you like when the reality is completely different. If you want an answer you've got to be honest with yourself. You can't pretend you can do with what Janice does, we simply don't. End of. The other example fits us very closely so it's quite clear.

And in your case you've made it clear to us in the past you do BAU support and other stuff as asked by the client. You are inside by the old rules let alone the new.

[psychocandy]

it's likely to be the decision of the PS body not the consultancy. But it raises an interesting point in that if the consultancy are providing a bunch of perms and contractors, and the PS body decides that all are outside ( the persm will be anyway as the consultancy will cover the PAYE/NICs) then you may be in luck.
We've seen a document but not the draft legislation so there are still some unknowns.

But then we're getting into the realms of the end customer telling the consultancy how to run their business....

[northernladuk]

But then we're getting into the realms of the end customer telling the consultancy how to run their business....

Not at all. Just the status of that contractor with a nice tool to aid that decision.

[psychocandy]

One other thing - how is this going to work? Come March Im going to want to know one way or the other how Im going to be seen. Obviously, huge difference in take home pay here. In current gig, it'll be a no thanks.

I can't see how an agency can offer a contract saying £x per day and then in a few weeks time say, sorry we've taken the tax and NI out so heres half of it. It just doesnt work like that.

Personally, Im going to need something in writing BEFORE a contract so I know which way its going to go.