State of the Market

[Cookielove]

Yep agree oliverson !

It is atrocious...I'd a call from an agent they left a voicemail tried to call them back several times and also emailed they just ignored me after they had called to discuss a role...if they don't get you first time they just ignore you it seems...

All the decent ones have left the industry I reckon.

It is all the dregs that are left and basic manners are a thing of the past.

I'd a Teams scheduled and the agent didn't even join they forgot, I sat for 15mins waiting and calling him ....he emailed hours later to say oh sorry told him to forget it absolute shiysters!

[willendure]

All the decent ones have left the industry I reckon.

I think a lot of agents must have left, for one thing, not many roles for them to recruit for. They are probably having it worse than us.

[edison]

This has to be a new low

Test Automation Engineer £196.90 inside IR35 - Milton Keynes

Highly experience with Selenium and Java / C#

Shocking!

Shocking indeed. There's no way I would work in Milton Keynes for less than £500 a day!

[willendure]

On the question of has contracting fundamentally changes vs the economy is just bad, I saw this graph recently. Presented by Lyn Alden in her Las Vegas Bitcoin 2025 talk, which you can find on youtube.

On the left is year on year creation of new debt, private vs public up to 1990. And on the right is 1990 to the present. So that is creation of new money in the real economy (private credit expansion) vs expansion of public debt (which does not always flow into the economy, or can take a lot longer to get there). This is the USA too, I don't have graphs for the UK, but we can take USA as a proxy for the world economy to a certain extent and I think the UK version will tell a similar story.

Its rare until 2009 that public debt grows faster than private. 2009 was obviously a tulip-show in that regard, but also look where we are since 2020. We are in a period of high inflation, low interest rate era behind us, and where businesses are not taking on new debt to fund expansion.

At the root of it, this is why there is no froth in the economy right now, why demand is muted, and why not many businesses are hiring contractors. Its also why businesses are cutting costs, and looking to bring in cheaper workers. But I don't really think that contracting has fundamentally changed - although if this goes on for long enough the changes begin to become permanent.

[SussexSeagull]

On the question of has contracting fundamentally changes vs the economy is just bad, I saw this graph recently. Presented by Lyn Alden in her Las Vegas Bitcoin 2025 talk, which you can find on youtube.

On the left is year on year creation of new debt, private vs public up to 1990. And on the right is 1990 to the present. So that is creation of new money in the real economy (private credit expansion) vs expansion of public debt (which does not always flow into the economy, or can take a lot longer to get there). This is the USA too, I don't have graphs for the UK, but we can take USA as a proxy for the world economy to a certain extent and I think the UK version will tell a similar story.

Its rare until 2009 that public debt grows faster than private. 2009 was obviously a tulip-show in that regard, but also look where we are since 2020. We are in a period of high inflation, low interest rate era behind us, and where businesses are not taking on new debt to fund expansion.

At the root of it, this is why there is no froth in the economy right now, why demand is muted, and why not many businesses are hiring contractors. It's doalso why businesses are cutting costs, and looking to bring in cheaper workers. But I don't really think that contracting has fundamentally changed - although if this goes on for long enough the changes begin to become permanent.

I think the infrastructure of the contracting market is in the process of being dismantled with agents disappearing and contractors either retiring or going permanent somewhere. If that continues all that will remain is the companies hiring Inside IR35 to get round paying employer NI.

Actually had a conversation about a permanent role on Friday and another one tomorrow. Obviously might just be coincidence and I am but one example but if the permanent market returns ahead of any bump in contracting, then it begins to look existential.

[Cookielove]

Moving into a perm role from contracting isn't easy they are averse to contractors, add on top of that if you are the wrong side of 50 it is nigh on impossible.

I applied for many perm jobs and got nowhere likewise a lot of my contacts made no head way...

You may get lucky ....depends on their attitude to contractors !

[avonleigh]

Moving into a perm role from contracting isn't easy they are averse to contractors, add on top of that if you are the wrong side of 50 it is nigh on impossible.

I applied for many perm jobs and got nowhere likewise a lot of my contacts made no head way...

You may get lucky ....depends on their attitude to contractors !

Agree on the permie side, I am 55 and got nowhere with permie roles. Don't bother now. Contracting not had any issues. Touch wood it continues. Never imagined I would not go permie at some point though. But it seems inevitable now.

[oliverson]

Last two posters. Men who've given up! Lol.

Funny you should make those comments about age and perm roles but somebody has been chasing me regarding a FTC leading to a perm role. I'm oddly interested as the rate is big, not quite a grand but very close, and I saw the same agency advertising a perm role recently in the £200-400k bracket. That definitely got my interest.

I've often wondered about some of these hedge funds and how much their permie devs make (and what they have to do for it).

[SchumiStars]

Last two posters. Men who've given up! Lol.

Funny you should make those comments about age and perm roles but somebody has been chasing me regarding a FTC leading to a perm role. I'm oddly interested as the rate is big, not quite a grand but very close, and I saw the same agency advertising a perm role recently in the £200-400k bracket. That definitely got my interest.

I've often wondered about some of these hedge funds and how much their permie devs make (and what they have to do for it).

I've never seen a (dev) role go between £200-400k. Slight update, think I will stop applying for positions. Absolutely no point ATM.

Going gym to lift heavy weights.

[willendure]

I think the infrastructure of the contracting market is in the process of being dismantled with agents disappearing and contractors either retiring or going permanent somewhere. If that continues all that will remain is the companies hiring Inside IR35 to get round paying employer NI.

Thats certainly how it feels now.

But if/when the money taps are turned back on again, things could quickly start to look very different.

"Bessent Says U.S. Can ‘Grow Our Way Out Of’ National Debt Crisis By Focusing On Economy"
https://www.dailywire.com/news/besse...ing-on-economy

My plan is to stay in contracting. My Ltd owns an office building so I'm a little bit more committed to the Ltd than most. But I could see myself also using the office building for some other kind of business, or swapping it for something more income oriented like a shop.

I am working lowering my cost basis by paying down debts, so I can survive lower rates or a period of unemployment. When I got into contracting in my 20s I used to undercut the competition, and I could do it again. Personally I think its worth staying in as will be in a good position when things do improve. Which they will, the mood is incredibly pessimistic right now.