State of the Market

[edison]

Which is all great until they wonder why someone who has been contracting for 20 years is applying for a 70k perm role. And there isn't really an easy answer for that. You can't really say "I'm down to the bare bones and this job at one third of my day rate is a stop gap until the storm blows over".

This happens at all levels. I've seen it when hiring people during the last 2-3 years for roles at even £40-50k.

I'm personally experiencing it myself now. Went for a £100k perm job and the recruiter politely laughed in my face. He looked at my LinkedIn profile as we were speaking and within a few seconds would have worked out it was likely a big drop from my day rate.

My only response is this is something I have thought about since 2020 and I've actively taken some steps and spent quite a lot of money to move towards a perm role. 80% of the time the recruiter still isn't convinced. For others, I think one of the only reasonable arguments is the market has so fundamentally changed that contracting isn't feasible from a risk/reward perspective.

[northernladuk]

I agree with both of you but I wonder how many have actually have had fingers burnt and how many are just trading off a general prejudice against what a contractor is and why they do it. We say a lot of them about ourselves around here when they aren't entirely true. Personally I find the reasons why people contract or want to contract often run a bit deeper than simply wanting to avoid some tax. Personally it was all about exposing myself to as my technologies as possible and being ultimately responsible for all of what I do. Don't want to blow my own trumpet (but its ok sometimes to recognise what you achieved) but I am probably in the top 10% of my field off the back of it. The extra money along the way was only a want due to the extra risks involved.

I don't know. I think my frustration is it all feels mainly prejudice driven than based on what actually will or might happen.

If you are offering a good salary, benefits and you have a nice place to work and keeping people challenged and engaged... a contractor in theory wouldn't have a reason to leave. I guess the real problem is, thats rarely the case :P

It's interesting having a discussion with a contractor that doesn't have the same opinion on this as most. Refreshing.

It does run deeper than tax which is even worse for the perm-contract situation though. The key thing I contract for is to be able to start with nothing and leave when it's done. I simply cannot do the endless churn. The longest I've every been in a job was 7 years in my early twenties chasing my career and knew by then I'm going to be a job hopper. I have a touch of autism so am super motivated with a challenge but get unmotivated very quickly without a light at the end of the tunnel. I am sure many 'normal' people are the same. I love starting a new gig, finishing it and then going while all the politics and un-fixable problems roll on forever. It's they way of working and the disconnect between. Some say well get a new project in your perm gig and start your challenge again but its just not the same. I'd call that churn which I cba with.

I'm 100% even if I decide to go perm for whatever reasons I'm going to be ready to go in a year or two. I've got that mindset and can't see it changing. I think many seasoned contractors are the same. Yes we can hop in and out of perm but we can't do perm for the next 5, 10 whatever years.

[tsmith]

Its hard to understand for me where the reluctance to engage with contractors who want to go perm comes from. Is it the agent not wanting to put us forward or is it demands from the employers ?

There are plenty of good people in both perm and contract roles but the very best people I have ever worked with have been contractors by and large. And most of us can easily jump between a perm and contract role without the world ending if its genuine want to move across. And I get that is the fear from employer, we will jump back, but a proper chat and interview process can usually expose that and employers should have more confidence in their ability to retain people if they are worth working for, and if not, its a them problem.

I want to move to perm but I can't get a single response from an agent. I have a six month contract so its not like I am desperate. Its more my wants for my future properly thought out. I won't be jumping back into contracting as soon as the market picks up for example. Contractor is just a means to an end at the moment. I want to move into a more team lead long term role.

If employers want to discount taking a risk on a contractor going perm then they are ignoring such a huge talent pool. Its terrible for UK plc as well to have so much talent unengaged right now.

I think going back to perm from contract - Im same as you - via agents goes nowhere. Only interest is via companies direct. But even then its slim pickings.

Almost all roles now have 'whats your salary' requirement now. No doubt if youre 10 years older than your new boss and wanting more then theyre on.

Your application is going nowhere

[ResistanceFighter]

If you are offering a good salary, benefits and you have a nice place to work and keeping people challenged and engaged... a contractor in theory wouldn't have a reason to leave. I guess the real problem is, thats rarely the case :P

99% of the time it's the money. This stretch is the longest I've been out. I'm not desperate, but I have a perm offer on the table but the salary is just far too low. I know full well that even if the job is great, I will just jump back on the contractor train when the market picks up again

[dx4100]

I agree with both of you but I wonder how many have actually have had fingers burnt and how many are just trading off a general prejudice against what a contractor is and why they do it. We say a lot of them about ourselves around here when they aren't entirely true. Personally I find the reasons why people contract or want to contract often run a bit deeper than simply wanting to avoid some tax. Personally it was all about exposing myself to as my technologies as possible and being ultimately responsible for all of what I do. Don't want to blow my own trumpet (but its ok sometimes to recognise what you achieved) but I am probably in the top 10% of my field off the back of it. The extra money along the way was only a want due to the extra risks involved.

I don't know. I think my frustration is it all feels mainly prejudice driven than based on what actually will or might happen.

If you are offering a good salary, benefits and you have a nice place to work and keeping people challenged and engaged... a contractor in theory wouldn't have a reason to leave. I guess the real problem is, thats rarely the case :P

[northernladuk]

Its hard to understand for me where the reluctance to engage with contractors who want to go perm comes from. Is it the agent not wanting to put us forward or is it demands from the employers ?

I think it's both will be asking themselves why a contractor is going perm. It' can't be anything but situational i.e. can't find contract work or want to reskill. There isn't a good reason in their head why someone would halve their income and deal with the crap of perm so must be some devious reason. It's highly likely they've also been bitten in the past with contractors going perm and then leaving shortly after and that's the last thing they want.

In a vast majority of cases they get a perm to perm and they stay for years except in odd cases where it doesn't work out
In a vast majority of cases they get a contractor to perm and they don't stay very long, usually to go back contracting or just can't hack perm life.

Those two situations make a contractor to perm a risky and short term solution so to be avoided.

There are plenty of good people in both perm and contract roles but the very best people I have ever worked with have been contractors by and large. And most of us can easily jump between a perm and contract role without the world ending if its genuine want to move across. And I get that is the fear from employer, we will jump back, but a proper chat and interview process can usually expose that and employers should have more confidence in their ability to retain people if they are worth working for, and if not, its a them problem.

You've kind of nailed the issue yourself. I am sure it's very often a genuine reason in the contractors head why they move but with a contractor mindset that genuine reason will change the next opportunity comes up. When a tasty outside gig pops up that increases the permatractors income by over 100% it doesn't matter what the client does. It's out of their hands.

[avonleigh]

Its hard to understand for me where the reluctance to engage with contractors who want to go perm comes from. Is it the agent not wanting to put us forward or is it demands from the employers ?

There are plenty of good people in both perm and contract roles but the very best people I have ever worked with have been contractors by and large. And most of us can easily jump between a perm and contract role without the world ending if its genuine want to move across. And I get that is the fear from employer, we will jump back, but a proper chat and interview process can usually expose that and employers should have more confidence in their ability to retain people if they are worth working for, and if not, its a them problem.

I want to move to perm but I can't get a single response from an agent. I have a six month contract so its not like I am desperate. Its more my wants for my future properly thought out. I won't be jumping back into contracting as soon as the market picks up for example. Contractor is just a means to an end at the moment. I want to move into a more team lead long term role.

If employers want to discount taking a risk on a contractor going perm then they are ignoring such a huge talent pool. Its terrible for UK plc as well to have so much talent unengaged right now.

I think the problem is there are a lot of contractors who flit in and out of permie and contracting as it suits them. I know several of such people. So some companies have had their fingers burnt. That said, a lot of permie's move between roles quite frequently anyway. The days of people staying somewhere 20 years and getting a nice carriage clock or a gold pen are well gone.

[dx4100]

Its hard to understand for me where the reluctance to engage with contractors who want to go perm comes from. Is it the agent not wanting to put us forward or is it demands from the employers ?

There are plenty of good people in both perm and contract roles but the very best people I have ever worked with have been contractors by and large. And most of us can easily jump between a perm and contract role without the world ending if its genuine want to move across. And I get that is the fear from employer, we will jump back, but a proper chat and interview process can usually expose that and employers should have more confidence in their ability to retain people if they are worth working for, and if not, its a them problem.

I want to move to perm but I can't get a single response from an agent. I have a six month contract so its not like I am desperate. Its more my wants for my future properly thought out. I won't be jumping back into contracting as soon as the market picks up for example. Contractor is just a means to an end at the moment. I want to move into a more team lead long term role.

If employers want to discount taking a risk on a contractor going perm then they are ignoring such a huge talent pool. Its terrible for UK plc as well to have so much talent unengaged right now.

[Cookielove]

I am a little bit older avonleigh so it is a real struggle I agree ....age plus long time contracting is a bad combination..

[avonleigh]

it is difficult to get a perm role when you have been contracting for 20 years...I tried last year and got nowhere.

It is really difficult as most roles tend to be inside now and they want some office presence now...

It is a perfect storm of crap basically...

Same. Been contracting 26 years and not got anywhere trying to find a permie job. Been looking since Covid. I am 53 as well which probably also doesn't help. Pretty much given up on the idea now.