State of the Market

[ShandyDrinker]

I see a lot of comments about local roles on here. It may be good having a local company that uses contractors but it smacks of disguised permie and also of putting eggs in a single basket.

Is everyone who is struggling prepared to either commute long distances or work away from home? Not ideal I know but better than nothing at times.

I have worked with plenty of people who have had a single local client and when that has ended they haven't had a clue what to do next.

If you want to make the most of contracting you have to be prepared to put yourself out at times.

Exactly.
Sometimes I wonder if people on here really are contractors if all they do is take local jobs.
In the last 10 years, I've contracted in:
Austria
Belgium
France
Germany
Ireland
Spain

...and currently a project in Japan

I've done a bit of work in the UK too, but there aren't many companies in the UK where my skills are not overkill.

Both spot on.

I'm constantly amazed by people who will not look outside their local area or region for work.

While I live in Swindon, the majority of my contracts have been based anywhere but Swindon and the South West. Although I haven't worked in anything like the number of places as WTFH has, I totally agree that to keep in work you have to spread your wings.

It would take me a lot to return to work as a permie and for that reason if my next contract has to take me to another country then bring it on.

[LondonManc]

i cant understand the financial benefit to a company of getting in outsourcers over individual contractors. The outsourcers cost a LOT more and the people they send are usually just out of school having been put on a crash course in whatever the technology is.

why cant they train uk citizens instead?

no wonder america voted trump and lest we forget the uk voted BREXIT

It's a race to the bottom line, simple as that.

Unfortunately bob and bobov are seen as cheap alternatives (when they're not actually an alternative, they're huge steps backwards). A new CEO wanting to make their bonus has the simple formula of "revenue - costs = profit". Unless they're one of the very best, they can't influence revenue, so attack costs, boost profit short terms, share price goes up, job done. Two years down the line, they've moved on and shat all over someone else's business.

[SussexSeagull]

Both spot on.

I'm constantly amazed by people who will not look outside their local area or region for work.

While I live in Swindon, the majority of my contracts have been based anywhere but Swindon and the South West. Although I haven't worked in anything like the number of places as WTFH has, I totally agree that to keep in work you have to spread your wings.

It would take me a lot to return to work as a permie and for that reason if my next contract has to take me to another country then bring it on.

I would personally work anywhere they have electricity but I do know people who only contract locally who seem to be doing ok at the moment.

Problem is agents when they have 100s of CVs they are going to lean towards those local to the client.

[ShandyDrinker]

i cant understand the financial benefit to a company of getting in outsourcers over individual contractors. The outsourcers cost a LOT more and the people they send are usually just out of school having been put on a crash course in whatever the technology is.

why cant they train uk citizens instead?

no wonder america voted trump and lest we forget the uk voted BREXIT

I think that's a little naive about not understanding the financial benefit. Do the outsourcers really cost a lot more when they are being nailed to the floor on rates. Lest we forget they're probably cheaper than permies and less than the usual agency->contractor model. If it wasn't cheaper for the bottom line, the accountants wouldn't do it.

Don't forget accountants see most items as interchangeable widgets and a line item on a spreadsheet. One developer is interchangeable with another for a given cost.

I think anyone can understand the short term economics of it... it is more the long term impacts of skills being lost locally or nationally, the potential increase in unemployment, impact on families and so on.

It depends on whether you want to look at the bigger picture of societal impact. Let's face it, many accountants, CEOs and shareholders quite frankly couldn't give a toss and it's a question for society as a whole as to whether they should.

[LondonManc]

I think that's a little naive about not understanding the financial benefit. Do the outsourcers really cost a lot more when they are being nailed to the floor on rates. Lest we forget they're probably cheaper than permies and less than the usual agency->contractor model. If it wasn't cheaper for the bottom line, the accountants wouldn't do it.

Don't forget accountants see most items as interchangeable widgets and a line item on a spreadsheet. One developer is interchangeable with another for a given cost.

I think anyone can understand the short term economics of it... it is more the long term impacts of skills being lost locally or nationally, the potential increase in unemployment, impact on families and so on.

It depends on whether you want to look at the bigger picture of societal impact. Let's face it, many accountants, CEOs and shareholders quite frankly couldn't give a toss and it's a question for society as a whole as to whether they should.

They're no longer as cheap as you think.

I was asked to help cost up a complex BI reporting pack build and it turned out that it was cheaper to have it built in London than in the UK.

[AndrewK]

I'd be less bitter if they were any good. I was brought in to do a handover (Weird situation given I'd not worked with the client/service provider before) to an Indian outsourcing company with a UK presence - they flew a couple of their "top" guys over and I spent a couple of days wanting to hang myself. EVERYTHING is colour by numbers for them and if there's no written procedure they're completely and utterly lost. Don't get me wrong, there should have been more documentation than there was, but most of it is the equivalent of a mechanic asking to see a manual when you need a tyre changing.

And then there's the lying and arguing which appears to be a real cultural divide - pal, I couldn't give a tulip what you read on the Internet, I'm telling you exactly how it works and I know because I've spent more time knee deep in it than you've spent in the country.

But they are cheap. And if they mirror you long enough, they will be able to do your job (at least 70% for 30% price). Robots replacing humans . Nobody cares (90% of customers) about quality in our new world. In corporate world quality is difficult to quantify, but savings easy. You don't get bonus for quality, you get bonus for savings in cost. Until system crashes and burn. But in that case you have new project - win win situation

[mrdonuts]

the outsourcing companies are charging more than uk ltd contractors --> FACT

[CoolCat]

the outsourcing companies are charging more than uk ltd contractors --> FACT

nonsense, and they are here because they are cheap the quality is pants

and to rub salt into the wounds a part of the reason they are cheaper is they get taxed less, first year in the country is free of employers and employees national insurance, they can claim amounts tax free as supposed expenses that a Brit away from home cannot, and the outsourcers are mostly organised to pay corporate tax in havens not here. Indeed many get paired so one does 12 months here, swaps with his buddy back home for twelve months, then the original one comes back, so between them permanently depriving a Brit of a job and never being here for more than 12 months so never paying any National Insurance.

and I don't just do finance sector stuff

and I've worked allover including USA, Europe, Aus/NZ

I think the Brexit vote has made some of the big players determined to ship even more Bulgarians in than planned so that come the day we do exit they can just say "they were already here"

The politicians are destroying an whole sector of the British workforce

[Cirrus]

the outsourcing companies are charging more than uk ltd contractors --> FACT

Not where I was recently (smack in the middle of the City).

And don't keep blaming short-sighted suits. As a PM, it was convenient to have people onshore and offshore who were a third of the cost of contractors yet doing a perfectly good job.

(Unlike some of the contractors ... )

[jmo21]

Both spot on.

I'm constantly amazed by people who will not look outside their local area or region for work.

While I live in Swindon, the majority of my contracts have been based anywhere but Swindon and the South West. Although I haven't worked in anything like the number of places as WTFH has, I totally agree that to keep in work you have to spread your wings.

It would take me a lot to return to work as a permie and for that reason if my next contract has to take me to another country then bring it on.

I live between 2 major cities, and have never had to travel for contracts.

I'm glad of that though with a young family.

If I struggle to find anything in those areas, it will be tough to go back to working away as I did a number of times with permie jobs when I was young with no ties.