State of the Market

[edison]

Just been offered a 6 month extension in my current Head of IT gig which I’ll accept. Also just been approached for an interim Head of IT Ops for a FTSE 100 company by their HR dept via LinkedIn. So market looks ok to me personally. Peversely I always seem to get more approaches/ opportunities in the supposed quieter months in summer and xmas/new year.

The generally low quality of CVs I’ve recently received for some vacant roles I have suggest that most of the better candidates are not looking again now till the new year.

[washed up contractor]

Same concept as Tata and Infosys, same people. At least the ones I've spoken to recently.

Crap Gemini called me a week or so ago. When I finally understood what the guy was saying (I'm not mocking foreigners, I'm foreign myself), he arranged a call with his manager who called me without notice and more or less just wanted to know what the lowest rate that I would take was.

The calls with the types of consultancies that employ Tier 2 staff always go the same way:

1. They promise you the world, nothing is a problem, 'sure Contractor101101, we are very flexible'
2. 'But what is the lowest rate you would accept really, won't hold it against you'
3. 'Our contracts are IR35 proof, approved by Qdos'

Then you might get a call from some small agency (who always has a cash flow problem, according to Companies House) who will pretend that they can get a gig directly with a client, only to see Tata mentioned as the 'line manager' with time sheet denial rights.

So sick of these calls, they appeared to have peaked, thank god.

Im so glad Im retired and out of this tulipe. TBH, Id hate to be contracting today what with all these pop up agencies and the 'can you let me know your last manager's name?' guff.

[fiisch]

Lucky me, I did not invest a penny in UK housing market and can relocate to India in 72 hrs notice lol

Not that lucky... you'd have done very well on property prices had you invested in 2009!

[molsang]

Not that lucky... you'd have done very well on property prices had you invested in 2009!

Yes I would have. But I did not, I am very conservative on financial matters. I invested heavily on Gold, Precious Metals and India's state owned banks fixed deposits where I earn guaranteed 9% cumulative interest and unlike ISA bond there is no limit how much you can save and for how long. I've done bit of investment in stock market as well where people get average 15% return. I did not have plan ever to settle in UK. I analysed the root cause behind UK's never ending needs of skilled migrants is education system so I always wanted my son to grow up in rigorous India's school system where focus on STEM is far better than UK.

[uk contractor]

Yes I would have. But I did not, I am very conservative on financial matters. I invested heavily on Gold, Precious Metals and India's state owned banks fixed deposits where I earn guaranteed 9% cumulative interest and unlike ISA bond there is no limit how much you can save and for how long. I've done bit of investment in stock market as well where people get average 15% return. I did not have plan ever to settle in UK. I analysed the root cause behind UK's never ending needs of skilled migrants is education system so I always wanted my son to grow up in rigorous India's school system where focus on STEM is far better than UK.

Your education system must be exceptionally poor if this is your understanding. The one & ONLY reason companies are allowed to flood the UK with migrants (your not anywhere as skilled as you think you are either) is to boost their profit margins by paying you way below fair market rates. The UK government is stuffed full of politicians & lobbyists who have vested interests in ensuring bottom feeder rate migrants are allowed to flow into the UK regardless of how much resentment this causes UK born workers who are then displaced if they cannot compete on bottom feeder rates!

So in reality the people you indirectly work for are laughing at how easy it is for them to use you to build easy wealth assets out of your gullible efforts.

[Kprad35]

Your education system must be exceptionally poor if this is your understanding. The one & ONLY reason companies are allowed to flood the UK with migrants (your not anywhere as skilled as you think you are either) is to boost their profit margins by paying you way below fair market rates. The UK government is stuffed full of politicians & lobbyists who have vested interests in ensuring bottom feeder rate migrants are allowed to flow into the UK regardless of how much resentment this causes UK born workers who are then displaced if they cannot compete on bottom feeder rates!


So in reality the people you indirectly work for are laughing at how easy it is for them to use you to build easy wealth assets out of your gullible efforts.

I agree with the above.I am also an Indian immigrant and I know the cost matters lot more than quality.If you are cheap you have better chance get a job.IT is cost centre and the primary objective of any company is to reduce cost.No-one wants to see the quality so, in future, cost would be less.there is no time, top IT managers have avg life of 3-4years. The only paramters IT managers are judged by how much they have reduced cost not how much they have delivered.

Education system: I studied in India and graduated from a premier Institute still UK' s GCSE, A levels and univerties are superior than India.My 10 year old kidss apppeared for11 plus, cant imagine indian kids are solving those questions at such young age.kids are smarter here but less competitive.

Why Indians are competitive: This is true with all developing nation including China.we learn to fight for survival from very young age. Avg Class sizes are 70-80 kids. We know there is no fall back so just take every chance as great opportunity and hang on it.UK kids are now slowly learning as finding jobs are getting difficult and free benefits are no longer free.This is good.Survival of the fittest.

[molsang]

Your education system must be exceptionally poor if this is your understanding. The one & ONLY reason companies are allowed to flood the UK with migrants (your not anywhere as skilled as you think you are either) is to boost their profit margins by paying you way below fair market rates. The UK government is stuffed full of politicians & lobbyists who have vested interests in ensuring bottom feeder rate migrants are allowed to flow into the UK regardless of how much resentment this causes UK born workers who are then displaced if they cannot compete on bottom feeder rates!

So in reality the people you indirectly work for are laughing at how easy it is for them to use you to build easy wealth assets out of your gullible efforts.

I did not came on ICT or Work Permit, I came on Tier 1 expat visa. In my age group 25-39 there are hardly any British techies, likewsie in my current team there are Portugese, Italians and Indians. It is ignorance to assume expats are cheap, I earn actually 4 times of average British Salary. There are British born techies in higher age group and yes they are very good. So evidence says the British education system on STEM areas has been dumb down over the years. Now come to higher education in UK, yes there are few premier institutes which still produce good employable people but their numbers are so few that number of opportunities in tech industry is always higher than number of native people available. Then why on earth NHS will go mad to hire even nurses from foreign countries, that says about education system is not suiting 21st century needs. Now come to personal experience, my son was going to one of top private schools in South London and what I noticed the difference is better discipline and making the kids suitable to think and live their life in a bubble of privilege and aristocracy. The standards and syllabus is extremely dumb down again comparing to standards and syllabus in India, China, Singapore, South Korea etc. The evidences are top CEOs in technology companies of Google, Microsoft, Adobe and so on are born and educated in India and migrated to United States at later stage of life. I worked for some period in Norway and Sweden, if I would have come directly to those countries instead UK I would have thought second time but I am convinced UK is no match to 21st century India. India is economically, politically, culturally destined to be one of top three powers in current multi-polar world order. Now yes there are many Indians who buy BBC propaganda against India as if everything in India is bad. I make my own opinion by self studies based on ground evidences, I am not gullible to buy anyone's propaganda.

[Contractor101101]

I did not came on ICT or Work Permit, I came on Tier 1 expat visa. In my age group 25-39 there are hardly any British techies, likewsie in my current team there are Portugese, Italians and Indians. It is ignorance to assume expats are cheap, I earn actually 4 times of average British Salary. There are British born techies in higher age group and yes they are very good. So evidence says the British education system on STEM areas has been dumb down over the years. Now come to higher education in UK, yes there are few premier institutes which still produce good employable people but their numbers are so few that number of opportunities in tech industry is always higher than number of native people available. Then why on earth NHS will go mad to hire even nurses from foreign countries, that says about education system is not suiting 21st century needs. Now come to personal experience, my son was going to one of top private schools in South London and what I noticed the difference is better discipline and making the kids suitable to think and live their life in a bubble of privilege and aristocracy. The standards and syllabus is extremely dumb down again comparing to standards and syllabus in India, China, Singapore, South Korea etc. The evidences are top CEOs in technology companies of Google, Microsoft, Adobe and so on are born and educated in India and migrated to United States at later stage of life. I worked for some period in Norway and Sweden, if I would have come directly to those countries instead UK I would have thought second time but I am convinced UK is no match to 21st century India. India is economically, politically, culturally destined to be one of top three powers in current multi-polar world order. Now yes there are many Indians who buy BBC propaganda against India as if everything in India is bad. I make my own opinion by self studies based on ground evidences, I am not gullible to buy anyone's propaganda.

I can't comment on other Asian countries but I have found Indian competence levels extremely varied. In my experience there are four reasons for that:

1) Fake degrees
2) Poor, rote learning education rather than the encouragement of learning concepts and their applications.
3) Too much deference and bullying, it is not a culture based on meritocracy
4) Technology is a way out of poverty and many of those that work in it don't have particular interest in it or aptitude for it.

The NHS employs whoever applies, they don't have a common application or employment policy, each Trust is for themselves (I contracted for the NHS about 10 years ago). It's absolute chaos and it's a horrible place to work, in general. I'd guess most natives work in private healthcare (if they are smart).

I don't think older tech guys are particularly good, I've worked for well known household names as a contractor, they tend to have large Indian companies packed in there and old men who have been there for 25 years and don't know anything else.

I agree that the education system in the UK is generally fairly mediocre - however, I also agree with those that cheap labour from third world countries is employed for cost saving reasons.

[molsang]

1) Fake degrees

Some people do but to say all Indians in abroad holding fake degrees is ignorance lol

2) Poor, rote learning education rather than the encouragement of learning concepts and their applications.

Too much prejudice with little understanding how UK looks from outside and how the actual situation in other countries ha ha

3) Too much deference and bullying, it is not a culture based on meritocracy

BS

4) Technology is a way out of poverty and many of those that work in it don't have particular interest in it or aptitude for it.

Some extent true technology is a way out of proverty (because India's wealth was shipped to UK to build UK at first place lol ofcourse because of India's faults). For example, India's space research organisation is very successful lifting people out of poverty. However generalizing that Indian people don't have interest or aptitude for it is absolute BS. By the way, Indians own many things in Britain worthwhile owning.

In nutshell, this same attitude seen among politicians in Britain and Brexit is revealing UK's actual status in the world.

[Contractor101101]

1) Fake degrees

Some people do but to say all Indians in abroad holding fake degrees is ignorance lol

2) Poor, rote learning education rather than the encouragement of learning concepts and their applications.

Too much prejudice with little understanding how UK looks from outside and how the actual situation in other countries ha ha

3) Too much deference and bullying, it is not a culture based on meritocracy

BS

4) Technology is a way out of poverty and many of those that work in it don't have particular interest in it or aptitude for it.

Some extent true technology is a way out of proverty (because India's wealth was shipped to UK to build UK at first place lol ofcourse because of India's faults). For example, India's space research organisation is very successful lifting people out of poverty. However generalizing that Indian people don't have interest or aptitude for it is absolute BS. By the way, Indians own many things in Britain worthwhile owning.

In nutshell, this same attitude seen among politicians in Britain and Brexit is revealing UK's actual status in the world.

I am not British. I presume the billionaire Indians you are referring to have had the benefit of the caste system and centuries of thieving - just like the upper classes in Europe.

The space program you are referring to is the laughing stock of the world. Compare what they sent up to space to what NASA or the Brits sent. Though I agree with you that the Indian public sector is a strong employer. A former colleague of mine who is from Mumbai told me that her husband's job in one of the Ministries was very sought after, I can well believe it. The public sector is seen as a good, reliable, steady employer in the developing world.

I worked within an Indian team at a large Oil company, I worked with them at a large mobile company and I also had a relationship wtih a Kenyan Indian guy. The team manager I worked with at the oil company would keep his staff working past midnight. He tried something similar with me but I gave him the middle finger. One of the Indian women at the mobile company made racist remarks to my boss who was black, I made a formal complaint it was upheld.

I trained Indian guys in my last permie role to take over some of my responsibilities before I left and that's when my ex and I discussed the education system, the concept of 'copying', rote learning because the guys I was training had a hard time applying concepts I was trying to teach them. They were simple concepts but had taken them months that others learned in days. I was training them because everyone else gave up on them in the company.

I worked with an Indian guy in my last contract in the team who had trouble learning anything new and functioning independently, outside a team, he repeatedly tried to bully me into helping him. I presume he thought he would succeed because I am a woman. Luckily for me, I managed to hand him enough rope to have him hang himself and he got fired.

I have extensive experience of the culture both in the work environment and privately. The caste system exists, the discrepancies in education exist, dishonesty and faking exist and those capable of being honest with themselves admit to it.

I can speak about it more freely in the work place and complain because I'm a woman so my caucasian background isn't a disadvantage here.

There are also good guys too of course, who get unceremoniously hammered into the ground. At the oil company I had to cover for them when they took their full lunch hour as their boss would call them every 20 minutes when he was out of the office. They didn't have a moment's peace.