State of the Market

[ladymuck]

The only bit I'd add is being wary of joining a team with multiple Eastern Europeans. I once worked on such a team with 3 Poles and they were forever talking their native tongue despite being in a UK office!

I have no issue with people talking to fellow countrymen (persons) in their native language. If their conversation doesn't need to involve you, then why not communicate amongst themselves in the manner that's easiest for them?

[herman_g]

The only bit I'd add is being wary of joining a team with multiple Eastern Europeans. I once worked on such a team with 3 Poles and they were forever talking their native tongue despite being in a UK office!

When I started my career in Toronto in the mid-80's, large numbers of IT workers were coming over from Hong Kong and speaking amoungst themselves in Cantonese. Bothered me at first but I learned it was not the most important thing to worry about at work.

[oliverson]

I have no issue with people talking to fellow countrymen (persons) in their native language. If their conversation doesn't need to involve you, then why not communicate amongst themselves in the manner that's easiest for them?

What I should probably add is that these guys were being brought into the team via a consultancy and in essence replacing local bods. There was a deep feeling of distrust.

[TheDude]

No phone calls, emails or interviews last week and it's looking the same this week. It is shockingly bad ATM.

This guy has the right idea though.

It might work if you are a kid happy to work for peanuts.

It definitely won't work if you are 50 and are used to earning a fair whack.

[ladymuck]

What I should probably add is that these guys were being brought into the team via a consultancy and in essence replacing local bods. There was a deep feeling of distrust.

Ah. I get you.

[sadkingbilly]

What I should probably add is that these guys were being brought into the team via a consultancy and in essence replacing local bods. There was a deep feeling of distrust.

yeh, being paranoid dosen't mean they're NOT all out to get you.

[SussexSeagull]

Like many here, I have also experienced the Indian consultancies at close range.
Some teams supplied from them are opportunistic and terrible.

Does anyone mean to say they haven't experienced the same thing from the UK-based consultancies?

On an individual level, some of the smartest and most productive consultants I've met are Indian. Also Eastern European, Pakistani, Nigerian, Columbian and Scottish.

I'm not sure the British stack up to be more effective, in my experience.

I think a lot of the problem is the consultancy model rather than the nationalities involved. I worked with, largely, British people working for Accenture on site with off shore developers in India and they were as bad as each other in their own ways. The Indian contractors I have worked with are generally of a very high standard.

Racking my brains and I don't recall working with a bad Eastern European. I had one project with a large amount of Nigerians and the women were great while the men could be a bit lazy.

I certainly don't think the Britains are some super race of IT professionals but at the same time I wouldn't run us down. In the right environment we are good at sustainable delivery as we are less bothered at being seen round the office as the Americans and can turn in a highly productive 9-5 and come back the next day and do the same again without the borderline sweat shop conditions of some countries commonly outsourced to.

[avonleigh]

I think a lot of the problem is the consultancy model rather than the nationalities involved. I worked with, largely, British people working for Accenture on site with off shore developers in India and they were as bad as each other in their own ways. The Indian contractors I have worked with are generally of a very high standard.

Racking my brains and I don't recall working with a bad Eastern European. I had one project with a large amount of Nigerians and the women were great while the men could be a bit lazy.

I certainly don't think the Britains are some super race of IT professionals but at the same time I wouldn't run us down. In the right environment we are good at sustainable delivery as we are less bothered at being seen round the office as the Americans and can turn in a highly productive 9-5 and come back the next day and do the same again without the borderline sweat shop conditions of some countries commonly outsourced to.

Problem with the consultancy model is they tend to use graduates with little practical experience. Certainly true with Accenture.

[SchumiStars]

Problem with the consultancy model is they tend to use graduates with little practical experience. Certainly true with Accenture.

I agree. That model works.

10 eager, hungry, graduates working hard to deliver for the company means two things, one the solution is cheap. And two the customer is happy.

There is massive incentive for each graduate to do well, it means promotion to the next stage, which is more money and responsibilities and so on.

The grads also learn loads in a short period of time including being customer facing and handling difficult problems in an intense busy environment. The competition from within is also intense. Constantly watching your own and other competitors (other grads) to ensure that promotion was yours.

I never wanted to be a manager or anything and was quite happy being a developer. Which none of the management understood.

Accenture project managers are very, very good. Since they promote from within and coming from the development background know how things work. They are driven by success, which is what I love.

On the other hand, resident project managers, with long established careers at organisations tend not to be particually motivated. They have seen it all before with the holding company and are generally not as eager or excited to deliver.

Probably why Accenture exist TBF. They come in build the solution and then leave, well at least they are supposed to. Usually what happens is that once ACN get in, they never leave

[Dorkeaux]

I agree. That model works.

10 eager, hungry, graduates working hard to deliver for the company means two things, one the solution is cheap. And two the customer is happy.

There is massive incentive for each graduate to do well, it means promotion to the next stage, which is more money and responsibilities and so on.

The grads also learn loads in a short period of time including being customer facing and handling difficult problems in an intense busy environment. The competition from within is also intense. Constantly watching your own and other competitors (other grads) to ensure that promotion was yours.

I never wanted to be a manager or anything and was quite happy being a developer. Which none of the management understood.

Accenture project managers are very, very good. Since they promote from within and coming from the development background know how things work. They are driven by success, which is what I love.

On the other hand, resident project managers, with long established careers at organisations tend not to be particually motivated. They have seen it all before with the holding company and are generally not as eager or excited to deliver.

Probably why Accenture exist TBF. They come in build the solution and then leave, well at least they are supposed to. Usually what happens is that once ACN get in, they never leave

Respect your point of view Shumster, but I disgree completely about the efficacy of the model.

I worked with Accenture as an associate. They do get hungry, inexperienced graduates. And they are trained to be highly competative, which is what they spend all their time doing. With each other, not the client's competitors.

They should be better trained in teamwork, technology and business. Not how to be churned through a client, sell more junior consultants and cut each others throats.

I'll never work with them again.