Help please

[Pondlife]

Often I would not charge if the day went over an hour extra but if it went over two then I would add this to my weèkly time, but this was not often.

Is not the same as

As far as I see it, when someone agrees to a day rate then they book you for a day and pay for the day regardless of what they get you to do.

You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

[sal]

If you have a daily rate agreed, then you invoice for the days that you worked, regardless of the amount of hours that you work that day.
If the client refuses to pay for the days that you have worked, then you sue to get what is due to you.

That's of course if you have a signed timesheet. And my understanding is that the OP worked for multiple clients through the same agency on a verbal agreement. Which means that the agency timesheets are used to establish if he worked that day or not. And that's what they are now doing - reviewing all the timesheets goign 10 months back and deciding which to sign/pay for.

Often I would not charge if the day went over an hour extra but if it went over two then I would add this to my weèkly time, but this was not often.

Which is fair enough and how most people i know do it. BUT you have to have this agreed with the customer and have your timesheet signed for the extra 1/2 or full day at the end of the week.

Normally it's the client who signs the timesheet and the agency keeps a copy and makes the payment, so going back in time and reviewing the payments will require cooperation and willingness from both parties. But i guess this is not the case here, so you are pretty much shafted when the lack of written contract is added to the equation.

[tractor]

...

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Reading the OP again, they say:

I informed them that their internal timesheet system, filled in by myself was for their records only and that I had been honest a put down the hours assigned to each client and the work I did for each client so they could calculate the cost to their client exactly

I'm a bit confused - who exactly is disputing the invoices and whose timesheet system was this? Is it the end clients or the agency? I'm assumed when OP say "agency" they mean an employment business but perhaps they mean "consultancy" and are referring to the end client?

If the former, then presumably they should have separate contracts for each end client they are engaged with through the client?

If the latter, then am I correct in interpreting the above as OP has been contracted to a single end client but has been working across multiple projects for multiple clients of their own client? If so, isn't this a potential IR35 risk in itself if their client has been directing them to work on whichever projects they want without separate schedules for each piece of work? Just saying...

[tractor]

...

Reading the OP again, they say:



I'm a bit confused - who exactly is disputing the invoices and whose timesheet system was this? Is it the end clients or the agency? I'm assumed when OP say "agency" they mean an employment business but perhaps they mean "consultancy" and are referring to the end client?

If the former, then presumably they should have separate contracts for each end client they are engaged with through the client?

If the latter, then am I correct in interpreting the above as OP has been contracted to a single end client but has been working across multiple projects for multiple clients of their own client? If so, isn't this a potential IR35 risk in itself if their client has been directing them to work on whichever projects they want without separate schedules for each piece of work? Just saying...

You are absolutely correct but if there is no contract it can hardly be relevant to an IR35 determination. However the reality certainly points to 'inside'.

[MisterMan]

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

As mentioned, no contract apart from a verbal agreement of xx amount per day.
I worked at the one advertising agency but was asked by the MD to work on multiple accounts.
I submitted my invoices with a break down of which clients I worked on purely for their time keeping so they could break down my time to their clients - I did this based on xx per day and not hours.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

We had no written contract - the only thing I have is an email outlining their request from a colleague of what my day rate was to be at the beginning of the job to which they paid.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

If I work it out per day that I attended their office then they would owe me more as some days I had to wait for jobs to come in whilst at their office. They are saying that they want to break my days down into billable hours and not on a booking per day as agreed verbally.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

[MisterMan]

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

As mentioned, no contract apart from a verbal agreement of xx amount per day.
I worked at the one advertising agency but was asked by the MD to work on multiple accounts.
I submitted my invoices with a break down of which clients I worked on purely for their time keeping so they could break down my time to their clients - I did this based on xx per day and not hours.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

We had no written contract - the only thing I have is an email outlining their request from a colleague of what my day rate was to be at the beginning of the job to which they paid.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

If I work it out per day that I attended their office then they would owe me more as some days I had to wait for jobs to come in whilst at their office. They are saying that they want to break my days down into billable hours and not on a booking per day as agreed verbally.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

[tractor]

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

As mentioned, no contract apart from a verbal agreement of xx amount per day.
I worked at the one advertising agency but was asked by the MD to work on multiple accounts.
I submitted my invoices with a break down of which clients I worked on purely for their time keeping so they could break down my time to their clients - I did this based on xx per day and not hours.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

We had no written contract - the only thing I have is an email outlining their request from a colleague of what my day rate was to be at the beginning of the job to which they paid.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

If I work it out per day that I attended their office then they would owe me more as some days I had to wait for jobs to come in whilst at their office. They are saying that they want to break my days down into billable hours and not on a booking per day as agreed verbally.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

If the above is correct, then I would work out what they owe you, save it up for when the come back with their estimate, bill them for the remainder of what they owe and follow the correct credit control and late payment procedure.

And next time, don't accept any work until you have a contract.

[MisterMan]

Reading the OP again, they say:



I'm a bit confused - who exactly is disputing the invoices and whose timesheet system was this? Is it the end clients or the agency? I'm assumed when OP say "agency" they mean an employment business but perhaps they mean "consultancy" and are referring to the end client?

The MD of the advertising agency (yes the agency) I worked for is disputing my invoices based on times I submitted.

If the former, then presumably they should have separate contracts for each end client they are engaged with through the client?

No, we had no contracts in place, onlay a verbal agreement that I would attend their office for xx per day

If the latter, then am I correct in interpreting the above as OP has been contracted to a single end client but has been working across multiple projects for multiple clients of their own client? If so, isn't this a potential IR35 risk in itself if their client has been directing them to work on whichever projects they want without separate schedules for each piece of work? Just saying...

I'm not sure what an IR35 risk is but I was asked to work per day at xx amount at their office. During those days I was asked to work on multiple clients and often multiple contracts for those clients.

[tractor]

...

I'm not sure what an IR35 risk is but I was asked to work per day at xx amount at their office. During those days I was asked to work on multiple clients and often multiple contracts for those clients.

You need to know. You should have been aware before you started contracting. Use the links on the right to find out about IR35. There is no real excuse for not knowing about legislation that has been in force for almost 15 years and pertains specifically to your corporate entity.