Opt out?

[malvolio]

If you are saying it can be changed up until the point of supply, you are correct. Subsequent extensions follow this status has always been my understanding.

You can elect to opt back in to an opted out contract or vice versa at renewal of the contract. Renewal to most of us means the end of the current term; I have little doubt however that agencies work on the basis that there is one contract with several subsequent schedules. But since 99% of opt outs, especially those done by bits built into the agency contract, are invalid, it's all a little moot...

[Andy Hallett]

You can elect to opt back in to an opted out contract or vice versa at renewal of the contract. Renewal to most of us means the end of the current term; I have little doubt however that agencies work on the basis that there is one contract with several subsequent schedules. But since 99% of opt outs, especially those done by bits built into the agency contract, are invalid, it's all a little moot...

Let's agree to differ on whether you can change horses at extension.

However, your % estimate in respect of invalid opt outs is not a million miles off.

[craig1]

The easiest option is to sign then put a note in a covering note that the opt out is irrelevant, More difficult options apply...

[tractor]

..

The easiest option is to sign then put a note in a covering note that the opt out is irrelevant, More difficult options apply...

Earlier this year I had a bullet headed moron of an agent (actually he was the moron MD) pull a contract and persuade the client to turn the offer into an FTC two days before the contract was due to begin because I would not opt out.

I walked.

[zudecke]

Response from agent:

" All except one have chosen to opt out due to the regulation placed by the government, I have included a link below which will be able to explain the difference better than I will be able to as there is quite a bit of information."

Confused dot com

[vwdan]

Response from agent:

" All except one have chosen to opt out due to the regulation placed by the government, I have included a link below which will be able to explain the difference better than I will be able to as there is quite a bit of information."

Confused dot com

What was the link..?

[malvolio]

What was the link..?

Who knows... But the definitive version is over here...

[TykeMerc]

Who knows... But the definitive version is over here...

Which is PCG members only content so unless people join the organisation responsible for saddling us with this cluster of things starting with F then that link is useless. The Opt Out has been used to bully and batter contractors to give up business benefits since it was negotiated.

Rather than trying to push membership of that organisation, why don't you just publish the "definitive version" in public?

[malvolio]

Which is PCG members only content so unless people join the organisation responsible for saddling us with this cluster of things starting with F then that link is useless. The Opt Out has been used to bully and batter contractors to give up business benefits since it was negotiated.

Rather than trying to push membership of that organisation, why don't you just publish the "definitive version" in public?

Well since you ask so nicely...

Apologies for not realising it was a member-only resource, bat ask PCG why it isn't public, not me.

However, in brief

• The opt out has nothing to do with IR35, directly or indirectly;
• The Regs were never meant for freelance contractors, who were always meant to be out of scope, but BIS (as was) screwed up the wording and has repeatedly failed to correct it
• Opting out saves the agency time, money and risk; a clue as to why they insist you should do so;
• Opting out, so saving the agency a heap of work (but having zero impact on your business) therefore means you have a slight advantage when negotiating a better contract, but;
• You lose a degree of protection against handcuff clauses and non-payment;
• So it's your decision which is better for you.

And if you haven't sent in a genuine opt out for both you personally and your company at the point you apply for the role with the agency it's highly you won't be opted out anyway so it's all highly academic: however I don't recall anyone taking an agency to court to test that properly so it remains a strong suspicion rather than hard and fast fact.

As to why we have the opt out, it is of genuine value to a range of small companies who use their own staff or subbies and who would otherwise be hamstrung by a set of regulations aimed at protecting vulnerable workers on low wages directly employed by a range of agencies. Why any highly paid and skilled independent contractor thinks they need to use the Regs to manage their business continues to defeat me.

Perhaps direct your ire at the agencies who have subverted what the Regs were meant to do in order to benefit their own businesses, not at those who are trying to make sense of things for those who can't be bothered to find out for themselves.

As for PCG membership, it's a no brainer on several levels. Apart form the protection is offers, look at all the detailed expert advice you would have access to...

[TykeMerc]

So the protection against an Agency refusing to pay even when a signed timesheet is in hand isn't a worthwhile business benefit?

The limit of handcuff clauses to a maximum of 8 weeks from the routine 6 and 12 months the Agencies like to try to impose isn't a business benefit?

Those 2 alone make Opting out a damn stupid business choice, neither are niff-naff and trivia, they're significant in a couple of scenarios when Agencies play silly buggers.
The Opt Out as it is applied is indefensible, it's a hindrance to us as contractors and there's almost no scenario where it can represent a benefit. No matter how many times you try to play down the PCG's role in being instrumental in lumbering all contractors with this mess for years past and god only knows how many years to come it's firmly at the door of the PCG which you try to promote constantly.

Response from agent:

" All except one have chosen to opt out due to the regulation placed by the government, I have included a link below which will be able to explain the difference better than I will be able to as there is quite a bit of information."

Confused dot com

This is what is typically known as a LIE. Agents do it all the time, on the subject of Opt Outs and the beneficial business position you give away they're routine things from the vast majority of Agents.