Crap deal will fail parliament, new referendum coming: vote Real Brexit!

[shaunbhoy]

I'm quite sad really.

Did somebody squeak?

[contractorinatractor]

Regarding the current EU negotiations:
I think what Shaun&Co don't understand from the Remainer position it is not simply the case that we don't want plenty of amazing trade agreements abroad. It's that I think most of us are realists - we don't really think we can get a better deal with other countries to compensate for the mass of missing income and great products from the EU. Anybody who remembers the 1970's will remember the poor selection of food in the UK on shelves at home and in the supermarkets. As food and drink are the basics of life I think those matter a lot, although I appreciate not everybody feels this way.

I think the dangerous thing to do is to assume the UK has much bargaining power at all. We are a services economy heavily reliant on financial services and the derivatives of those services, spawning further service functions. We produce a reasonable amount of goods, but honestly, if you check the import/export figures we do a ginormous volume of trade with the EU that we have already been told we won't be able to do if we 'leave', particularly a hard Brexit.

From the likes of SeriousCirrus, myself and others here the detected anger is that Shaun&Co simply can't understand the level of anger. I do think there is a hark back to the days in which the UK was powerful and had plenty of allies to rely on. Now? We're in a globally-connected world but the good and services we use, where we are positioned geographically near the EU, means we have a lot of their likes, dislikes and traits, whether we would like to admit it or not. Brexit seems to me to have a scent of nationalistic pride about it, but not in the Scottish way, where they want to change for the better and progress (they seem to pass laws that England later adopt). Instead it seems to be a 'England! England! England!' manner that goes beyond reason and therefore beyond comprehension for the likes of us who are looking on thinking this:

*Immigration was always mostly controlled by the government. They made choices not to lower it. Don't need to leave the EU to lower immigration.
*Look after 'forgotten towns' better - again, government policy dictated this move, which I agree was very wrong indeed
*Austerity - There are many ways to skin a cat and the Conservative government made an ideological decision to pursue the type of austerity in which towns and small cities were negatively affected by the financial crash, more so than in other EU countries. We should take note of that for the future - we don't have to destroy local areas who likely had very little to do with helping the financial crash come about in the first place.

Brexit won't solve the above, good government will solve the above. If we look past brexit what England (it's the largest most populated country, so the main one worth mentioning most) needs is eradicating 'first past the post' voting system and getting hybrid governments in who can defend these towns, villages and cities.

Leaving the EU to do this won't work and most of us know it. I do think if Shaun was asked directly he would say, like many Leavers: "we will be worse off by a currently immeasurable' amount but it'll be worth it for sovereignty."

I guess the difference here is Remainers don't see sovereignty as a genuine entity you can grasp; as has been mentioned the shape of Leave varies depending on who you speak to. This worries me most, because it means we're going to have a rough departure from the EU that is probably going to be fine for all of us older people but will completely eradicate opportunities for the poorer people who voted for exactly this Leave. If you don't have money saved already then brexit is going to be awful for at least a decade, if not longer.

[contractorinatractor]

Regarding NI situation:

We're the "United Kingdom and Northern Ireland". The history of NI really makes the UK look like the major aggressor, as was much of the case with The Empire - so much so that it's hardly surprising the IRA came into existence.

The trend for the UK the past few decades is handing back areas we colonised (for good or bad, up for discussion) back to the original owners or responsible local partners. NI may not be a candidate for this right now but it has at least raised the question.

The ideal solution, as far as I'm concerned, is for NI to be part of Ireland but with legislation enshrined that respects the rights of people of various religions, plus those with no religious affiliation. A byproduct of this is that the IRA can claim to have 'won', but unfortunately with any solution one of the sides, by definition, will have 'won' some of their demands.

Important to remember 'United Kingdom' doesn't actually mean much as a title. We're not united and visiting a small Scottish town and small English village to speak to locals confirms the vast differences in lifestyle and views between people. The phrase 'United Ireland' appears to fuel a lot of anger; but reality is they won't be any more united in their views that what the people of the UK are(n't)

[westtester]

The problem with the government (and has been for some time) is that it's led by a cabinet of middle managers who have no competency beyond signing what's put in front of them by the civil service and dreaming up new ways to save money.

They are exactly the sort of morons you're plagued by in the office, bums who are 'promoted' into positions where they can do as little damage as possible. You can't actually sack them as they manage a veneer of usefulness which is sufficient to meet the minimum requirements of their employment contract. Lloyds have a solution for these types which is a rolling redundancy/early retirement sweep that removes all such turds on a regular basis. I would advocate a similar approach to the governing parties if it weren't for the fact there are numerous, equally useless candidates waiting to step into their shoes.

I'm almost tempted to say we should put the Queen in charge.

[TestMangler]

Regarding the current EU negotiations:
I think what Shaun&Co don't understand from the Remainer position it is not simply the case that we don't want plenty of amazing trade agreements abroad. It's that I think most of us are realists - we don't really think we can get a better deal with other countries to compensate for the mass of missing income and great products from the EU. Anybody who remembers the 1970's will remember the poor selection of food in the UK on shelves at home and in the supermarkets. As food and drink are the basics of life I think those matter a lot, although I appreciate not everybody feels this way.

I think the dangerous thing to do is to assume the UK has much bargaining power at all. We are a services economy heavily reliant on financial services and the derivatives of those services, spawning further service functions. We produce a reasonable amount of goods, but honestly, if you check the import/export figures we do a ginormous volume of trade with the EU that we have already been told we won't be able to do if we 'leave', particularly a hard Brexit.

From the likes of SeriousCirrus, myself and others here the detected anger is that Shaun&Co simply can't understand the level of anger. I do think there is a hark back to the days in which the UK was powerful and had plenty of allies to rely on. Now? We're in a globally-connected world but the good and services we use, where we are positioned geographically near the EU, means we have a lot of their likes, dislikes and traits, whether we would like to admit it or not. Brexit seems to me to have a scent of nationalistic pride about it, but not in the Scottish way, where they want to change for the better and progress (they seem to pass laws that England later adopt). Instead it seems to be a 'England! England! England!' manner that goes beyond reason and therefore beyond comprehension for the likes of us who are looking on thinking this:

*Immigration was always mostly controlled by the government. They made choices not to lower it. Don't need to leave the EU to lower immigration.
*Look after 'forgotten towns' better - again, government policy dictated this move, which I agree was very wrong indeed
*Austerity - There are many ways to skin a cat and the Conservative government made an ideological decision to pursue the type of austerity in which towns and small cities were negatively affected by the financial crash, more so than in other EU countries. We should take note of that for the future - we don't have to destroy local areas who likely had very little to do with helping the financial crash come about in the first place.

Brexit won't solve the above, good government will solve the above. If we look past brexit what England (it's the largest most populated country, so the main one worth mentioning most) needs is eradicating 'first past the post' voting system and getting hybrid governments in who can defend these towns, villages and cities.

Leaving the EU to do this won't work and most of us know it. I do think if Shaun was asked directly he would say, like many Leavers: "we will be worse off by a currently immeasurable' amount but it'll be worth it for sovereignty."

I guess the difference here is Remainers don't see sovereignty as a genuine entity you can grasp; as has been mentioned the shape of Leave varies depending on who you speak to. This worries me most, because it means we're going to have a rough departure from the EU that is probably going to be fine for all of us older people but will completely eradicate opportunities for the poorer people who voted for exactly this Leave. If you don't have money saved already then brexit is going to be awful for at least a decade, if not longer.

I wouldn't go trying to talk sense and logic on this forum. You'll be ridiculed for it

Good post BTW.....

[original PM]

The problem with the government (and has been for some time) is that it's led by a cabinet of middle managers who have no competency beyond signing what's put in front of them by the civil service and dreaming up new ways to save money.

They are exactly the sort of morons you're plagued by in the office, bums who are 'promoted' into positions where they can do as little damage as possible. You can't actually sack them as they manage a veneer of usefulness which is sufficient to meet the minimum requirements of their employment contract. Lloyds have a solution for these types which is a rolling redundancy/early retirement sweep that removes all such turds on a regular basis. I would advocate a similar approach to the governing parties if it weren't for the fact there are numerous, equally useless candidates waiting to step into their shoes.

I'm almost tempted to say we should put the Queen in charge.

We could put the queen in charge but either way having another 700 of these pointless mealy mouthed middle managers shuffling between Strasbourg and Geneva at the cost of 150 million is not something we want to be a party to...

[WTFH]

Regarding NI situation:

We're the "United Kingdom and Northern Ireland".

I think you might want to check that. It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[shaunbhoy]

Regarding the current EU negotiations:
I think what Shaun&Co don't understand from the Remainer position it is not simply the case that we don't want plenty of amazing trade agreements abroad. It's that I think most of us are realists - we don't really think we can get a better deal with other countries to compensate for the mass of missing income and great products from the EU.

No, what I don't understand is your assumption that just because the Barniers and Junckers of this world are seeking to give the impression that the EU will just put up the shutters, that this is what will actually unfold. They are making an ideological statement that will never be ratified by the EU businesses whose profits rely upon us as a marketplace. We should show a bit of spirit and call their bluff. As the inevitable eleventh hour arrives these dinosaurs will be moved aside and common sense and pragmatism will prevail to the mutual benefit of all parties.

Anybody who remembers the 1970's will remember the poor selection of food in the UK on shelves at home and in the supermarkets. As food and drink are the basics of life I think those matter a lot, although I appreciate not everybody feels this way.

You mean back in the days when we didn't have an obesity epidemic or numerous foodbanks?

No, now I like having access to a great range of foodstuffs and such like as much as the next man, but do you REALLY believe that those producers are just going to sit back and let idealogues like Tusk and Druncker severely impact their markets just to prove some churlish point? Won't be allowed to happen.

I think the dangerous thing to do is to assume the UK has much bargaining power at all.

On the contrary, the dangerous thing is to assume that we don't in this instance. After all if we did NOT have anything to bargain with then you can bet your life that the EU would not be giving a flying fook that we are leaving.

We are a services economy heavily reliant on financial services and the derivatives of those services, spawning further service functions. We produce a reasonable amount of goods, but honestly, if you check the import/export figures we do a ginormous volume of trade with the EU that we have already been told we won't be able to do if we 'leave', particularly a hard Brexit.

Negotiating Tip #1. Do NOT believe everything you are told, particularly when the person doing the waffling is a discredited drunken charlatan.

I do think if Shaun was asked directly he would say, like many Leavers: "we will be worse off by a currently immeasurable' amount but it'll be worth it for sovereignty."

Nope. I would not say that at all. What I WOULD say is that mutually beneficial trading arrangements have been in place since way before the existence of the EU, and it will exist long after it folds.
The transferral of goods and services is palpably NOT something that need be over-regulated and micromanaged in the way the EU Commission likes to have us believe.
In the cold light of day whilst I am happy to accept that there may be a period of upheaval and uncertainty in the short term, the long term benefits will far outweigh the drawbacks.

[sasguru]

... that will never be ratified by the EU businesses whose profits rely upon us as a marketplace ......[extended drivel and pish]

You really are an ignorant simpleton

https://cer.eu/sites/default/files/p...it_17.3.17.pdf

"German businesses are deeply connected to the EU through a network of supply chains, and rely on Europe and the rest of the world for their exports. They have
more interest in preserving the EU’s single market and the EU’s clout in international trade negotiations than they have in tariff-free access to the British market"

[shaunbhoy]

You really are an ignorant simpleton

https://cer.eu/sites/default/files/p...it_17.3.17.pdf

Written by the "Centre for European Reform" (The Centre for European Reform is a think-tank devoted to making the European Union work better and strengthening its role in the world.)

Well I stand corrected, as your rebuttal has come all the way down from such an impartial source.

Jesus wept, do you ever even read any of the links you post or is that expecting too much?

You are obviously hell-bent on hoovering up any last votes that are still up for grabs in the "Nation's Greatest Cretin" Award.

Well done on beating whorty and darmy in rubberstamping the halfwit element to the thread.