Britain has backed itself into a corner

[northernladyuk]

Of course it did. Just another of the awful Western policies, we should have pursued better ties with Russia.

Would NATO and the EU be entirely separate in the Russian view though? You are more likely to step in to defend a nation if you have a closer relationship with it on trade and other issues. I suspect Russia sees the EU as part of the Western threat.

Thank you for bringing a bit of nuance, xoggy after the EU does not bring peace and NATO does bring peace binary drivel.

The fact that we are talking about Ukraine suggests something in itself. Europe, by and large, has seen unprecedented peace since the end of WW2. From the earliest days of the Treaty of Paris and Treaty of Rome the European Coal and Steel Community, and then the EEC designed structures to preserve peace, and peace we have seen. It seems a weird coincidence if people are saying there is no causation. However, I am not saying that the EU is the only cause of widespread peace (in the main) in Europe. Nor am I saying that the EU has not made mistakes (as it appears to be making in Catalonia now). It's worth looking at the last 400 years of Franco-German (Prussian / Holy Roman Empire) conflict, many if which have escalated significantly.

1618–48: Thirty Years' War
1672–78: Franco–Dutch War between the Netherlands and France expands to a European conflict in 1673–74
1688: War of the Grand Alliance
1688–1702 Esechiel du Mas, Comte de Melac pursues a policy of death and destruction in SW Germany "Brulez le Palatinat", countless cities, towns and villages were reduced to ashes
1701–14: War of the Spanish Succession between the Houses of Bourbon and Habsburg
1718: War of the Quadruple Alliance
1733–35: War of the Polish Succession between the Houses of Bourbon and Habsburg
1740–48: War of the Austrian Succession → main antagonists: France and Great Britain
1754 and 1756–63: Seven Years' War → Prussia, Great Britain, and Hannover against France, Austria, the Russian Empire, Sweden, and Saxony
1792–1815: French Revolutionary Wars
1792–97: War of the First Coalition: Prussia and Austria, since 1793 also Great Britain, Spain, the Netherlands, Sardinia, Naples, and Tuscany against French Republic. French occupation of the Rhineland.
1794: Holy Roman Empire and France, French occupation of Austrian Netherlands (1795–1806 Batavian Republic)
1799–1815: Napoleonic Wars
1803–06: War of the Third Coalition: France closes out the Holy Roman Empire.
1806–07: War of the Fourth Coalition: Prussia, Electorate of Saxony, Saxony-Weimar, and Brunswick against the French Empire. All Franco–Prussian battles were French victories of Napoleon I (including Battle of Jena–Auerstedt) ensuing this was the occupation of Prussia per the Treaties of Tilsit. Prussia was conquered by France in only 19 days.
1813: Battle of the Nations
1840: Rhine crisis: Rhine was a historic object of frontier trouble, between France and Germany; in 1840, the Rhine crisis evolved, because the French prime minister, Adolphe Thiers, started to talk about the Rhine border.
1848: Revolutions of 1848 grip the German states after French liberalism becomes popular with German peasants.
1870–71: Franco–Prussian War. The defeat of Napoleon III led to the unification of Germany in the German Empire under Prussian leadership.
1914–18: World War I, mostly fought in trenches in France
1923–30: French Occupation of the Ruhr.
1939–40: Battle of France. Victory of Hitler over the Allies (France, Great Britain et al). France was conquered by Germany in only 1 month and 12 days.
1940–42: North part of metropolitan France is occupied by Germany per the Second Armistice at Compiègne.
1942–44: Following the Anglo-American landing in French North Africa, the South part of France is occupied by Germany.
1944–45: Following the Allies landing in Normandy and Provence (including Free French forces), a Vichy French exile government is created in western Germany, the Sigmaringen enclave.
1945: The defeat of Germany during World War II led to the French occupation of parts of western Germany (and Berlin)
1963: Élysée Treaty of friendship between France and West Germany, signed by President Charles de Gaulle and Chancellor Konrad Adenauer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French%...3German_enmity

[tomtomagain]

interesting reading the comments in the Indy yesterday somebody else was commenting why aren't we seeing massive construction at Dover, new lorry parks, hiring more customs officers, etc for when the chaos of the Article 50 enactment arrives

Milan.

Because the UK is not going to bother checking stuff. It's going to declare Dover, Southampton and Liverpool as a "Free Port".

Why would we want to introduce checks when we're planning tarrif-free trade with the World? If the EU wants to add extra checks, then they can implement those on their side of the border.

Same as the Irish border. The UK wants free movement to continue, so why would it impose border checks? If the EU doesn't want free movement to continue, it can command the Irish government to impose border controls.

[woohoo]

Russia doesn't see the EU as a threat and have made no negative comments about an EU army.

Russian - EU partnership

BB you must be a Russian bot.

[WTFH]

Britain has backed itself into a corner

Because the UK is not going to bother checking stuff. It's going to declare Dover, Southampton and Liverpool as a "Free Port".

Why would we want to introduce checks when we're planning tarrif-free trade with the World? If the EU wants to add extra checks, then they can implement those on their side of the border.

I’m struggling to decide whether you are being sarcastic here or not.

If we don’t check everything coming into the country and we’ve left the EU, then who do we blame for not checking the illegal immigrants/terrorists/migrants that are coming here?
Currently we could check, but the government chooses not to, instead blaming the EU.

[tomtomagain]

I’m struggling to decide whether you are being sarcastic here or not.

Bit of both really.

Checking for terrorist/migrants is one thing, checking that a cargo of oranges from Egypt ( sans the EU Citrus Fruit tariff and therefore cheaper than Spanish oranges ) is another.

I suppose that the thing that riles me a bit is the attitude that "There will be problems and we cannot do anything about them". If there is a queue in Dover ... there's going to be a corresponding queue in Calais. What are the French doing about that?

In reality, there will be problems, there always are, but we'll adapt and change and deal with them, we always do.

And also the impression that all the pain will be inflicted on the UK. It clearly will not be.

Zeebrugge biggest Belgian Brexit victim?

[milanbenes]

I suppose that the thing that riles me a bit is the attitude that "There will be problems and we cannot do anything about them". If there is a queue in Dover ... there's going to be a corresponding queue in Calais. What are the French doing about that?

In reality, there will be problems, there always are, but we'll adapt and change and deal with them, we always do.

And also the impression that all the pain will be inflicted on the UK. It clearly will not be.

yes and no

I am not saying there won't be a queue on the Calais side to go towards the UK,

I am much much more curious about Britain's supply chain

the supply chain is going to be fecked

will the French supply chain be fecked, not really, they're not going to miss a few kilos of Scottish salmon and a few jars of marmite are they ?

and on their side on the mainland they have all of the staples required to live

but on the British side, when all of the trucks bringing in Britain's supply chain are stuck in Calais because they cannot be processed,

well,

it's going to be a feckup isn't it

Milan

[BlasterBates]

Bit of both really.

Checking for terrorist/migrants is one thing, checking that a cargo of oranges from Egypt ( sans the EU Citrus Fruit tariff and therefore cheaper than Spanish oranges ) is another.

I suppose that the thing that riles me a bit is the attitude that "There will be problems and we cannot do anything about them". If there is a queue in Dover ... there's going to be a corresponding queue in Calais. What are the French doing about that?

In reality, there will be problems, there always are, but we'll adapt and change and deal with them, we always do.

And also the impression that all the pain will be inflicted on the UK. It clearly will not be.

Zeebrugge biggest Belgian Brexit victim?

The difference is that the French have 26 alternatives to import and export their produce, whereas Britain will be stuck with masses of lorries at the border. The inevitable mess at the UK border is a fact of life that will become reality, every bit as much as the huge queue of lorries trying to get in and out of Switzerland. The fact is, it's the Swiss who suffer not the rest of the EU.

[WTFH]

Bit of both really.

Checking for terrorist/migrants is one thing, checking that a cargo of oranges from Egypt ( sans the EU Citrus Fruit tariff and therefore cheaper than Spanish oranges ) is another.

It’s not. It all involves opening/scanning the trucks and checking the paperwork.
And without the tariffs we’ll be free to bring in chlorinated chickens from the US as well.

I suppose that the thing that riles me a bit is the attitude that "There will be problems and we cannot do anything about them". If there is a queue in Dover ... there's going to be a corresponding queue in Calais. What are the French doing about that?

In reality, there will be problems, there always are, but we'll adapt and change and deal with them, we always do.

And also the impression that all the pain will be inflicted on the UK. It clearly will not be.

Zeebrugge biggest Belgian Brexit victim?

Yes, I agree. If there are queues they will be on both sides, and that article explains why there might not be queues - if it is too difficult or too expensive, then the trade no longer becomes worth doing.
While we will no longer be buying tariff-regulated products from Spain, there is also no compulsion for EU countries to buy product from outside the EU, particularly if there is a tariff on it. >70% of our food and drink exports go to the EU.

[milanbenes]

precisely, the EU's supply chain won't be affected - who's going to miss a few bottles of Lea and Perrins and some Marmite

Britain on the other side, how much of Britain's supply chain comes in through Dover ?

ok, it seems, in September David Davies accepted that post Brexit freight delays through Dover will impact Britain's supply chain... UK Brexit negotiator concedes that there will be traffic delays at Dover (and on the M20). – Hollingbourne Parish Council

more here if you have time to read it...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1BP20J

higher prices and the food supply chain affected

Brexit means Brexit

this is going to be fecking funny to watch

Milan.

[milanbenes]

on the positive side,

The government estimates a new, upgraded electronic customs system - due to be introduced just two months before Brexit - will need to process 255 million customs declarations a year, up from 55 million now.

“Is a new IT system going to be able to cope with a sudden massive surge in stuff going through? ... It is a highly complex environment and the capacity for glitches is bound to be there,” said Guy Platten, Chief Executive of the UK Chamber of Shipping.


this is going to be fecking funny to watch

Milan.