[Merged]Brexit stuff (part 2)

[scooterscot]

We had a chance for AV when we had a coalition government as there was a referendum then. The Tories and Labour ensured that the system didn't change.

Yes, as I recall the vote for AV used the first past the post system.

So have we now come to the end of the road?

Will the establishment continue to milk every ounce of worth from the electorate for their own gain?

If our democracy is to grow it must change.

[NotAllThere]

The result would be a stronger Leave, especially now an untrustworthy judiciary has found against the people.

You've said some spectacularly stupid things but this really is the most stupid. You're just moaning and upset because the side you supported (the government) lost. And your snivelling is against the very things that are cornerstones of the British democracy. It's really pathetic. Suck it up princess and stop whining. You lost (this round).

The judiciary can find against the people and against the government because that's how the British legal system works. It's also how our democracy works. The government cannot do unlawful things, even if mandated to do so by the people. It is demonstration of the independence of the judiciary which is a good thing, even when it doesn't yield the results you want. If they want to do things that aren't lawful under current law, then they have to change the law, and that requires a majority in Parliament. They can't just change the law because they want to (or even because most people in the UK want to - if you want to allow for that, better start campaigning for electoral reform; perhaps some form of citizen's initiatives triggering binding referendums). But for goodness sake, stop your ill-informed whinging.

As it stands, under British law, the government cannot trigger Article 50 without referring to parliament. If the government appeal wins, then, under British law, the government can trigger Article 50 without referring to parliament.

[NotAllThere]

...

Will the establishment continue to milk every ounce of worth from the electorate for their own gain?

If our democracy is to grow it must change.

Yes, and yes. If GB9 understood that it is the current system that's let him down, not a bunch of judges choosing to ignore the will of the people, he'd agree with you as well.

[Old Greg]

This looks like fun.

EU Law Analysis: Brexit: can the ECJ get involved?

What if the Supreme Court decides not to refer to the ECJ – is that the end of the matter? Not quite. Since the ECJ judgment in Kobler, it’s established that a Member State can be liable in damages if its supreme court gets EU law wrong without asking the ECJ questions about it. So individuals could go to a lower UK court claiming damages on this basis, and the lower court might deem it necessary to clarify the point by asking the ECJ about revocability, perhaps ordering the government not to make the Article 50 notification in the meantime.

[jamesbrown]

This looks like fun.

All of this is increasing the probability of an uncompromising Brexit. The rhetoric in the press is becoming ridiculous. If May is forced to seek a further mandate in a GE, Conservative associations won't be seeking moderate candidates. Labour will be annihilated and some Tory seats will be pressured by UKIP. The Tory manifesto commitments will need to be uncompromising.

I'd be interested to see the SC ruling, if only to have clarification on what is meant by Parliamentary scrutiny. Is an SI sufficient? That's a very different prospect than primary legislation. However, the longer May drags this out, the greater the risk that she'll be pushed into a very uncompromising GE mandate. It's probably better that she forgets about the appeal and introduces either an SI or, more likely, a timetabled Act.

The remainers can't see the wood for the trees w/r to the implications of this decision. It does the opposite of encourage compromise. That said, you can't blame the HC. It was completely misplayed by HMG. They should've introduced an Act in August or fought the case on the reversibility of A50.

[GB9]

All of this is increasing the probability of an uncompromising Brexit. The rhetoric in the press is becoming ridiculous. If May is forced to seek a further mandate in a GE, Conservative associations won't be seeking moderate candidates. Labour will be annihilated and some Tory seats will be pressured by UKIP. The Tory manifesto commitments will need to be uncompromising.

I'd be interested to see the SC ruling, if only to have clarification on what is meant by Parliamentary scrutiny. Is an SI sufficient? That's a very different prospect than primary legislation. However, the longer May drags this out, the greater the risk that she'll be pushed into a very uncompromising GE mandate. It's probably better that she forgets about the appeal and introduces either an SI or, more likely, a timetabled Act.

The remainers can't see the wood for the trees w/r to the implications of this decision. It does the opposite of encourage compromise. That said, you can't blame the HC. It was completely misplayed by HMG. They should've introduced an Act in August or fought the case on the reversibility of A50.

There is a recognised approach to these cases of letting the opposition state their case whilst you reveal very little. You lose but then on spiral you know exactly what to hit. It may be that hmg has no ammo to hit with. Or maybe it has.

As we have both stated, in the event of a GE I think we will move to the right.

[NotAllThere]

... It was completely misplayed by HMG. ...

I think we all agree on that point! Bunch of muppets, shouldn't be allowed to run a bath, let alone a country.

[Paddy]

It seems that the Supreme Court are not taking any chances and are having all eleven judges preside. A narrow majority could mean taking it to the EC however, to me the law seems clear on this one; Hansard, recorded the referendum as being advisory and May can’t trigger Article 50 with parliament’s approval. It is a great legal issue but not the only one.

Even if parliament votes in favour A50, then there are a plethora of other legal issues some of which could end up in the ECtHR and EC.

It is a huge mess caused by the government and allowing the newspapers to go beyond free speech and to incite hatred.

A general election is a must and I suspect the Lib-Dems will hold the balance of power.

[jamesbrown]

I think we all agree on that point! Bunch of muppets, shouldn't be allowed to run a bath, let alone a country.

I can't see how Jeremy Wright stays in post. He was a poor choice, and not only with hindsight. The most complex legal scenario facing the country in a generation, and they choose someone that wasn't even a QC at the time.

[jamesbrown]

A general election is a must and I suspect the Lib-Dems will hold the balance of power.

The balance of power to the HoL toilets, perhaps. There's literally no evidence that the Lib Dems would improve their position in a GE, let alone secure any meaningful power. They are consistently polling at around 8%. It would be an absolute Tory landslide, with UKIP pressuring Labour in the North, especially with Paul Nuttall. You may hope for a particular outcome, but there's no credible evidence for a Lib Dem fight back, nationally, or any path to success for an anti-Brexit coalition. As far as I can see, a GE would be the worst possible outcome for continuity remain, because it would form the basis for a strong Tory majority in the HoC and bypass any blocking in the HoL completely, even without HoL reform (i.e. Salisbury Convention).