IR35 - who are the actual targets?

[meanttobeworking]

So you made a stupid comparison to prove you're right on a serious subject? That just strengthens the argument we're a bunch of chancers playing the system.

No, I use a common method of debate to highlight the absurdity of the opposing argument. The stupidity of the comparison highlights the flaws in the thought process of, in this case, HMRC. It's not my fault if it goes over your head.

[Jog On]

I never knew that IR35 was born out of Fri-Mon permietractors. I've only been contracting for 4 years now and never seen one of these.

So based on this an IR35 questionnaire should go along the lines of:

"Have you evenr worked for your current client as a permanent employee? If so how long for and when?"

I'm a bum-on-seat Mon-Fri 9-5 contractor but I don't see that as making me any kind of employee of the agency/clientco - any more than a builder who spends 6 months doing up a house and works at the same place of work for the duration of the job..

No sickpay, holiday pay, benefits, redundancy, promise of work and the fact that I have to rectify anything I do wrong in my own time at my own expense says I'll pay myself how I choose.... Even on a 12 monther..

Thieving opportunistic flippers trying to go after the little guys and letting the big guys ride them like donkeys...

[SueEllen]

I never knew that IR35 was born out of Fri-Mon permietractors. I've only been contracting for 4 years now and never seen one of these.

Well you are very unlikely to meet any on the job but may end up knowing some socially.

Most companies are very careful now because if HMRC starts investigating the ex-employee, they know they will get in trouble as well plus would also face a large legal bill defending themselves against a tribunal claim from the ex-employee.

So based on this an IR35 questionnaire should go along the lines of:

"Have you evenr worked for your current client as a permanent employee? If so how long for and when?"

This would only be relevant to SME's who haven't taken any legal advice plus some of the governments own agencies.

I'm a bum-on-seat Mon-Fri 9-5 contractor but I don't see that as making me any kind of employee of the agency/clientco - any more than a builder who spends 6 months doing up a house and works at the same place of work for the duration of the job..

Do you really only work Mon-Fri 9-5 for all your clients? I know I don't.

However I do have clients where the hours I can work are limited for security and transport reasons. Plus in addition if I have to provide support services to client staff members or co-operate with them, then it's easier and more productive if I adapt my working hours to their times.

No sickpay, holiday pay, benefits, redundancy, promise of work and the fact that I have to rectify anything I do wrong in my own time at my own expense says I'll pay myself how I choose.... Even on a 12 monther..

While you have a choice of going as a freelancer if you work direct with clients this option isn't available with agencies, which is the government's own fault.

Thieving opportunistic flippers trying to go after the little guys and letting the big guys ride them like donkeys...

The big guys have enough money to fight HMRC. HMRC have had legal battles with some large companies that have gone on for years i.e. M&S which lasted 13 years.

[DrEvil]

Well I'm kind of a Fri-Monday contractor as sorts.. however I like to think of myself (rightly or wrongly) as a disguised contractor

I was consulting for a company and decided I wanted to be a contractor, I told one of my former clients about this and they said they'd like to set me on. However due to various legal problems I couldn't become a contractor straight away without the risk of both me and the client being sued. Therefore after some legal adivce I took a "permie" job at the client for an agreed three months basis after which I'd become a contractor. There by avoiding all the legal crap because they couldn't legally stop me taking a permie job there due to restriction of trade.

I'm now in my second stint at the same client and all is rosey, no pimps involved and even have sub-contractors working for me through my ltdco etc.. I've always regarded myself as outside IR35 as there is definitely no control or knowledge really about what I do, even when I was a permie for the short-time.

Whilst obviously not wanting the hassle of an investigation I'd love to argue my case with them

[SueEllen]

I'm now in my second stint at the same client and all is rosey, no pimps involved and even have sub-contractors working for me through my ltdco etc.. )

How many employees can choose to subcontract part of their work out?

[malvolio]

Whilst obviously not wanting the hassle of an investigation I'd love to argue my case with them

Ermm... Just as an aside, you do realise that every IR35 investigation that's been lost have been ones where the contractor represented themselves? With a win/lose ratio of roughly 99% in favour of the contractor, doesn't that tell you something?

[IR35 Avoider]

Ermm... Just as an aside, you do realise that every IR35 investigation that's been lost have been ones where the contractor represented themselves? With a win/lose ratio of roughly 99% in favour of the contractor, doesn't that tell you something?

Presumably that 99% success rate is where actual hearings are held, and we know nothing about the outcome of cases where either side (but probably the contractor) folded before a hearing. Contractors who had advice/representation would be advised to fold by their advisors if the advisor thinks they will lose. So what the statistic really means is that represented contractors are never wrongly told there case is winnable, but we don't know how many winnable cases are not contested and how many unwinnable cases are lost without a fight?

[d000hg]

No, I use a common method of debate to highlight the absurdity of the opposing argument. The stupidity of the comparison highlights the flaws in the thought process of, in this case, HMRC. It's not my fault if it goes over your head.

There is clearly a huge difference between a window-cleaner and an IT contractor. therefore your comparison is useless and your argument stupid. They're totally different situations.

[meanttobeworking]

There is clearly a huge difference between a window-cleaner and an IT contractor.

Yes, you're following the argument so far...

therefore your comparison is useless and your argument stupid. They're totally different situations.

... yep, and that's where it went over your head.

I get that you don't like my comparison - I really do. But I'm not going to carry on justifying it to someone that clearly just doesn't get it. You're right, I'm a total moron, as can be seen by all the other people on here ripping it out of me alongside you...

[meanttobeworking]

PS. Got anything interesting to say about IR35?