Hays HSR20 and IR35

[aceboy]

I guess it is different if the hays people are on the site of the client...... whioch means I am I guess technically direct...

My contract is written by <ClientBank Selection Department> in conjunction with Hays....

[Swamp Thing]

Really??? We've been reviewing Hays contracts for 10 years and I can't remember the last time I saw one that was even vaguely compliant.

They usually farm out the same one with a highly restrictive right of substitution (often clause 3.5). As Clare says, the working practices are important, but it certainly helps to have a decent contract.

Agree with Qdos here. Hays are well aware of IR35 issues but like a lot of agencies they will not go to bat with the client to ensure that lower and upper contracts are aligned on IR35. They’re too scared to back the contractor too much. The fettered substitution clause is typical, as are ambiguous/overbearing ways of working clauses, which inevitably create MOO.

Clients do take an interest in IR35 issues, but others will simply push down the risk to agencies/contractors and let them fight it out. They know that there are plenty more contractors out there who are either oblivious to IR35 or will take the gamble, so that they don’t rock the boat and secure the contract instead of you.

[mdsmith]

Really??? We've been reviewing Hays contracts for 10 years and I can't remember the last time I saw one that was even vaguely compliant.

They usually farm out the same one with a highly restrictive right of substitution (often clause 3.5). As Clare says, the working practices are important, but it certainly helps to have a decent contract.

Hays are now sending "Terms of Assignment of Consultants via a Limited Company Contractor and Self-Billing Agreement (PSCToA 01-10)" out or at least that is what i have just been asked to sign.

I was going to send it to Qdos for IR35 reviewing but based on what has been said it looks like i might be wasting my time / money?

Incidentally it does still have the clause 3.5 in wrt substitution.

Do i just have to accept its wording then?

[Clare@InTouch]

Hays are now sending "Terms of Assignment of Consultants via a Limited Company Contractor and Self-Billing Agreement (PSCToA 01-10)" out or at least that is what i have just been asked to sign.

I was going to send it to Qdos for IR35 reviewing but based on what has been said it looks like i might be wasting my time / money?

Incidentally it does still have the clause 3.5 in wrt substitution.

Do i just have to accept its wording then?

If Hays refuse to budge, try getting a seperate letter in place direct with your client which sets out the actual position.

[TheFaQQer]

Hays are now sending "Terms of Assignment of Consultants via a Limited Company Contractor and Self-Billing Agreement (PSCToA 01-10)" out or at least that is what i have just been asked to sign.

I was going to send it to Qdos for IR35 reviewing but based on what has been said it looks like i might be wasting my time / money?

Incidentally it does still have the clause 3.5 in wrt substitution.

Do i just have to accept its wording then?

Qdos will tell you what needs to be changed in the contract - whether you will get Hays to do that is a completely different matter.

Having an IR35 unfriendly contract is not the end of the world providing the reality is different. However, it makes mounting a successful defence much harder.

[cmscotland]

Still a waste of time to get the Hays PSCToA 01-10 reviewed?

[northernladuk]

Still a waste of time to get the Hays PSCToA 01-10 reviewed?

I don't believe a review is ever a waste of time for a number of reasons. Even if it is deemed inside IR35 you have shown diligence which also counts in investigations. It also highlights to you what you must do differently in the workplace (if possible) so you can prove actual is not the same as contract.

Reviews are also free if you buy insurance through QDOS particularly, not sure the other providors.

[TestMangler]

I know B&C have got HIT20 changed to be IR35-friendly, buit it was a bit of a struggle. Like many of the big agencies, it all seems to depend on which office you're dealing with.

WMS. HIT 20 (or at leat the version they were using at HBOS) was changed in about 2005 after me and a few others refused to put our names on it. The evidence was presented to the client from a B&C review and changes were made.

[TestMangler]

Really??? We've been reviewing Hays contracts for 10 years and I can't remember the last time I saw one that was even vaguely compliant.

They usually farm out the same one with a highly restrictive right of substitution (often clause 3.5). As Clare says, the working practices are important, but it certainly helps to have a decent contract.

Is that a sweeping generalisation or a statement you'd be prepared to stand by if stood in a boxing ring with someone from B&C ?????

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Clare is spot on - your IR35 status will be determined by your working practises; although a perfect IR35 friendly contract is ideal it won't count for much if your working practises put you inside