Reply to: Hays HSR20 and IR35

[TestMangler]

Thanks folks, had it reviewed by my accountant.

Your accountant is a contract law specialist ?????

[cmscotland]

Thanks folks, had it reviewed by my accountant.

[TestMangler]

Ok, well it's good news if they are starting to change. Let's hope they roll out the compliant version for everyone before long, because that substitution clause has been a right pain over the years.

If it's Glaswegians we're talking about then surely a kebab shop would be a more appropriate battleground? (I also have Glaswegian heritage btw)

The changes I refer to were made in 2005, if I recall.

Kebab shop, chippy, taxi queue. You can have an impromptu boxing ring anywhere

[Qdos Contractor]

It must depend on the agency/branch/end client then as i've seen changes made to the HIT20 following review by B&C and I've also had a couple of subsequest Hays contracts reviewed by them and their assesment doesn't match your original assertion. Just saying like.

By the way, I'm from Glasgow. All contract negotiations are best done in a boxing ring

Ok, well it's good news if they are starting to change. Let's hope they roll out the compliant version for everyone before long, because that substitution clause has been a right pain over the years.

If it's Glaswegians we're talking about then surely a kebab shop would be a more appropriate battleground? (I also have Glaswegian heritage btw)

[TestMangler]

It was a sweeping generalisation based on my experience (nearly 2 years ago). I've just spoken to the team who review contracts and they say a minority of the Hays agreements they get now are compliant, but most are still rubbish. I guess it must depend on the agent/branch/end client you are dealing with.

I like the people at B&C, so I would avoid being in a boxing ring with them if at all possible. It would also be a weird way of discussing a contract.

It must depend on the agency/branch/end client then as i've seen changes made to the HIT20 following review by B&C and I've also had a couple of subsequest Hays contracts reviewed by them and their assesment doesn't match your original assertion. Just saying like.

By the way, I'm from Glasgow. All contract negotiations are best done in a boxing ring

[Qdos Contractor]

Is that a sweeping generalisation or a statement you'd be prepared to stand by if stood in a boxing ring with someone from B&C ?????

It was a sweeping generalisation based on my experience (nearly 2 years ago). I've just spoken to the team who review contracts and they say a minority of the Hays agreements they get now are compliant, but most are still rubbish. I guess it must depend on the agent/branch/end client you are dealing with.

I like the people at B&C, so I would avoid being in a boxing ring with them if at all possible. It would also be a weird way of discussing a contract.

[Bumfluff]

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[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Clare is spot on - your IR35 status will be determined by your working practises; although a perfect IR35 friendly contract is ideal it won't count for much if your working practises put you inside

[TestMangler]

Really??? We've been reviewing Hays contracts for 10 years and I can't remember the last time I saw one that was even vaguely compliant.

They usually farm out the same one with a highly restrictive right of substitution (often clause 3.5). As Clare says, the working practices are important, but it certainly helps to have a decent contract.

Is that a sweeping generalisation or a statement you'd be prepared to stand by if stood in a boxing ring with someone from B&C ?????

[TestMangler]

I know B&C have got HIT20 changed to be IR35-friendly, buit it was a bit of a struggle. Like many of the big agencies, it all seems to depend on which office you're dealing with.

WMS. HIT 20 (or at leat the version they were using at HBOS) was changed in about 2005 after me and a few others refused to put our names on it. The evidence was presented to the client from a B&C review and changes were made.

[northernladuk]

Still a waste of time to get the Hays PSCToA 01-10 reviewed?

I don't believe a review is ever a waste of time for a number of reasons. Even if it is deemed inside IR35 you have shown diligence which also counts in investigations. It also highlights to you what you must do differently in the workplace (if possible) so you can prove actual is not the same as contract.

Reviews are also free if you buy insurance through QDOS particularly, not sure the other providors.

[cmscotland]

Still a waste of time to get the Hays PSCToA 01-10 reviewed?

[TheFaQQer]

Hays are now sending "Terms of Assignment of Consultants via a Limited Company Contractor and Self-Billing Agreement (PSCToA 01-10)" out or at least that is what i have just been asked to sign.

I was going to send it to Qdos for IR35 reviewing but based on what has been said it looks like i might be wasting my time / money?

Incidentally it does still have the clause 3.5 in wrt substitution.

Do i just have to accept its wording then?

Qdos will tell you what needs to be changed in the contract - whether you will get Hays to do that is a completely different matter.

Having an IR35 unfriendly contract is not the end of the world providing the reality is different. However, it makes mounting a successful defence much harder.

[Clare@InTouch]

Hays are now sending "Terms of Assignment of Consultants via a Limited Company Contractor and Self-Billing Agreement (PSCToA 01-10)" out or at least that is what i have just been asked to sign.

I was going to send it to Qdos for IR35 reviewing but based on what has been said it looks like i might be wasting my time / money?

Incidentally it does still have the clause 3.5 in wrt substitution.

Do i just have to accept its wording then?

If Hays refuse to budge, try getting a seperate letter in place direct with your client which sets out the actual position.

[mdsmith]

Really??? We've been reviewing Hays contracts for 10 years and I can't remember the last time I saw one that was even vaguely compliant.

They usually farm out the same one with a highly restrictive right of substitution (often clause 3.5). As Clare says, the working practices are important, but it certainly helps to have a decent contract.

Hays are now sending "Terms of Assignment of Consultants via a Limited Company Contractor and Self-Billing Agreement (PSCToA 01-10)" out or at least that is what i have just been asked to sign.

I was going to send it to Qdos for IR35 reviewing but based on what has been said it looks like i might be wasting my time / money?

Incidentally it does still have the clause 3.5 in wrt substitution.

Do i just have to accept its wording then?