Arguing Permanancy

**northernladuk** · 12 January 2010, 10:46

I don't know the legalities of this but I can't believe you can just on common sense grounds.

That aside you didn't sign anything and your term was broken up with short contracts so your argument for permanency will only go from the end of the last contract so a very short period of time. You said Apr 2008 to Jul 2008 so you have effectively only got 18 months. Thats not permancy, thats just being daft and not having a contract.

There was also the high profile case of the guy working for Oracle (i think) who was there for 8 years and when the binned him the a*se tried to sue for unfair dismissal which got binned as he was there as temp resource regardless of time. No contracts existed to prove otherwise.

I have been advised due to the length of service within the contract, which have been presumed by all parties, the fact I have actually been working outside of a contract for the past 18 months, and am treated as employee in all aspects except pay, I may have an argument for permanacy.

As said, you havn't been outside of the contract for 18 months. You had one in April.

The answer to all these questions is the End Client.

You will also be applying to put yourself slap bang in IR35 for the last three years as well surely? Have you investigated the impact of this?

Do I have an argument for permanancy?

I am struggling to think how or why this would work. You are effectively forcing the company to take you on against their wishes. Do you think they will do this and even if they do do you think you will have a future there? Personally if I was forced to take you on I would have you on the hit list first round of people out. Also if they do take you on it would be on a reduced rate etc. Are you happy with this? I just can't understand why you want this.

HTH

**Pondlife** · 12 January 2010, 10:54

How do you get the money for this work?

Do you get a PAYE payslip from the client, the agency, an umbrella or do you use your own ltd co?

**RichardCranium** · 12 January 2010, 11:15

If you could prove you were a permie, they would either sack you or just make you redundant and you'd get something like 3 weeks money. But that's not going to happen without a stressful bun fight and you'll never work there again.

Alternatively, spend the next couple of months being really nice and friendly to everyone, dropping business cards and LinkedIn invitations everywhere you go, and telling everyone there how happy you have been and how you are really looking forward to the opportunity to contract for them again. Point out you can be available on call, if they wish, until such time as you find a new contract.

Make sure they know how flexible you have been about working without a contract and not taking holidays. You've been really good to them and they have been lucky to have you - make sure they know that.

Spend the remaining time learning new skills using their resources and updating your CV and getting it out to the agencies.

Come the end of March you will have a really happy client that you might keep going back to on and off until you retire, loads of useful contacts for the future, and probably a new gig somewhere else anyway.

The latter is the proper, professional, contractor's way of doing things.

**northernladuk** · 12 January 2010, 11:22

Originally posted by RichardCranium View Post

If you could prove you were a permie, they would either sack you or just make you redundant and you'd get something like 3 weeks money. But that's not going to happen without a stressful bun fight and you'll never work there again.

Alternatively, spend the next couple of months being really nice and friendly to everyone, dropping business cards and LinkedIn invitations everywhere you go, and telling everyone there how happy you have been and how you are really looking forward to the opportunity to contract for them again. Point out you can be available on call, if they wish, until such time as you find a new contract.

Make sure they know how flexible you have been about working without a contract and not taking holidays. You've been really good to them and they have been lucky to have you - make sure they know that.

Spend the remaining time learning new skills using their resources and updating your CV and getting it out to the agencies.

Come the end of March you will have a really happy client that you might keep going back to on and off until you retire, loads of useful contacts for the future, and probably a new gig somewhere else anyway.

The latter is the proper, professional, contractor's way of doing things.

As ever Mr RC gets it on the head in half the words everyone else uses.

I would ask though if you have considered such an aggresive approach have you made any hint of this to your immediate colleagues/fellow contractors. If so you could be on the backfoot of RC's suggestion already.

**SuperZ** · 12 January 2010, 12:41

WHat they said.
Don't ruin what has obviously between a good relationship with the client by becoming a PITA.

At best you're a contractor covered by the terms of the last contract you had. YOu've never approach them to ask about going permanent, and they may have rules regarding employment processes so may never have been able to just give ya a job.

You're not after redundancy cash are you?

I would never continue working without a contract. I don't mind (if I trust client) if it takes a few weeks but would want a new contract to cover each period.

If you can't take the fact that one day your contract will come to an end, go permanent somewhere else

**Ardesco** · 12 January 2010, 14:52

Also bear in mind that if it goes to a court of law the company in question will probably argue that you are continuing to work in accordance with the terms of your last contract. They may even pull an unsigned extension contract out from somewhere saying that as far as they were concerned it was sent out to you and they just haven't received it back yet and as you never mentioned it they just assumed there were no problems.

The fact that you continued to work there and get paid will probably be enough for a judge to find in their favour.

(of course IANAL, etc.)

**BlasterBates** · 12 January 2010, 15:37

Yep agree with the above, the best outcome you'll have is a pay off of several weeks of pay. But first you have to spend a considerable amount to get them in court. Doesn't sound to me that it's worth it. What you won't get is a permie job.

**ASB** · 12 January 2010, 16:02

What you can do is go to an employment tribunal alleging unfair dismissal. This will cause the tribunal to ascertain you employment status under employment law (which is different from tax law because the definition of "worker" is wider). Should they decide you are an employee then they can decide if it is unfair dismissal.

I am aware of one case (involving Cable and Wireless) where a contractor was found to be an actual employee of C & W. Start here: http://www.lawspeed.com/press/recrui...e_july_05.aspx.

However this did involve some VERY specific (and unusual) circumstances.

Equally you might like to consider O'Murphy v HP. He won initially but HP won on appeal.

http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/ltext/l0970002.htm

It would of course be entirely possible (but unlikely) to be declared an employee by the ET (and even win the unfair dismissal case), but still not be considered by HMRC as an employee (because different law applies).

Personally I think even launching a case at an ET would definitely indicate inside IR35 so depending upon how you have been remunerated this could be an issue for you.

Of course most of the above is guesswork since no indications of the contracts in place are given.

Arguing Permanancy