BN66 - Time to fight back: Continued

[smalldog]

I've had enquiries open on my 2001/2 tax return for 5 years, so if there is a time limit it's a bloody long one.

me too, its more if there is any time limits from it becoming legislation. Do HMRC have a time limit on which they must invoke a law, and if they fail too they have missed the boat?

[ASB]

me too, its more if there is any time limits from it becoming legislation. Do HMRC have a time limit on which they must invoke a law, and if they fail too they have missed the boat?

For self assessment you will find the time limit on HMRC website. It's not very long at all - might even be 11 months.

But that doesn't necessarily help.

If they open an enquiry into a later assessment then they can then launch a discovery enquiry (there is supposed to be something actually discovered in the return they are investigating). This can date back, as far as I recall, either 6 or 21 tax years (the higher in the event of fraud).

Whether or not any of the discovery assessments HMRC have issued to users of this scheme are valid is an open point. A taxpayer may take the view that correctly referring to the scheme and that relief was taken on it should amount to full disclosure; and thus there is no discovery.

HMRC don't take this view of course. But it does seem we might soon find out which prevails.

[smalldog]

For self assessment you will find the time limit on HMRC website. It's not very long at all - might even be 11 months.

But that doesn't necessarily help.

If they open an enquiry into a later assessment then they can then launch a discovery enquiry (there is supposed to be something actually discovered in the return they are investigating). This can date back, as far as I recall, either 6 or 21 tax years (the higher in the event of fraud).

Whether or not any of the discovery assessments HMRC have issued to users of this scheme are valid is an open point. A taxpayer may take the view that correctly referring to the scheme and that relief was taken on it should amount to full disclosure; and thus there is no discovery.

HMRC don't take this view of course. But it does seem we might soon find out which prevails.

ASB thanks and without sounding poo pooish I know all that. Its the fact that the law has now been changed and I wondered if it has its own time limits, nothing to do with opening enquiries.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

For self assessment you will find the time limit on HMRC website. It's not very long at all - might even be 11 months.

But that doesn't necessarily help.

If they open an enquiry into a later assessment then they can then launch a discovery enquiry (there is supposed to be something actually discovered in the return they are investigating). This can date back, as far as I recall, either 6 or 21 tax years (the higher in the event of fraud).

Whether or not any of the discovery assessments HMRC have issued to users of this scheme are valid is an open point. A taxpayer may take the view that correctly referring to the scheme and that relief was taken on it should amount to full disclosure; and thus there is no discovery.

HMRC don't take this view of course. But it does seem we might soon find out which prevails.

I think smalldog is referring to whether there is a time limit for issuing a Closure Notice against an open enquiry now that the law has been changed.

My guess is that they can probably take as long as they like. After all, they are hardly likely to get a flood of complaints from people who haven't received one.

[ASB]

ASB thanks and without sounding poo pooish I know all that. Its the fact that the law has now been changed and I wondered if it has its own time limits, nothing to do with opening enquiries.

Sorry I misunderstood

In terms of existing enquiries where a closure notice has not been issued there is a process which can force the issue - though I can't remember exactly what it is (I think you have to go to the commissioners to force a determination). Other than that I believe HMRC can prevaricate for as long as they wish. This would only change if there were specific provisions in the new legislation that varied it and I don't believe there are.

[Ratican]

Member of Parliament - Meeting Arranged

Hi folks. After 3 emails and a few phone calls I have an appointment with my [Senior Lib Dem] MP in a couple of weeks. Her party is against the retrospective aspect of BN66 - like the Tories; but I don't want to base the meeting and her subsequent actions on this particular point as we have discovered that there is little to be achieved and that route is "in hand" with the JR, etc.

What I thought would be good is for us to collectively gather together information, facts and figures from this saga that require answers and I will ask my MP to put specific questions to Jane Kennedy or [preferably?] whoever has taken over her position - or the Chancellor [?]. DRs post is a good place to start: http://forums.contractoruk.com/672012-post810.html

I think that there are some tough questions that the Govt. will have to try to answer if asked in the correct way.

Can anybody help me to get started with some solid facts and figures - anything at all that doesn't add up in JK's oral or written material - or anything else that would make sense to ask (possible mis-information, etc.)?

Please also let me know if you think that there is anything else useful that I can do / say / ask at this meeting. Or any comments.

Thanks.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Hi folks. After 3 emails and a few phone calls I have an appointment with my [Senior Lib Dem] MP in a couple of weeks. Her party is against the retrospective aspect of BN66 - like the Tories; but I don't want to base the meeting and her subsequent actions on this particular point as we have discovered that there is little to be achieved and that route is "in hand" with the JR, etc.

What I thought would be good is for us to collectively gather together information, facts and figures from this saga that require answers and I will ask my MP to put specific questions to Jane Kennedy or [preferably?] whoever has taken over her position - or the Chancellor [?]. DRs post is a good place to start: http://forums.contractoruk.com/672012-post810.html

I think that there are some tough questions that the Govt. will have to try to answer if asked in the correct way.

Can anybody help me to get started with some solid facts and figures - anything at all that doesn't add up in JK's oral or written material - or anything else that would make sense to ask (possible mis-information, etc.)?

Please also let me know if you think that there is anything else useful that I can do / say / ask at this meeting. Or any comments.

Thanks.

I would start with Jane Kennedy's claim that HMRC only became aware, through the disclosure regime, of the "unprecedented scale" of the problem last year. And the specific request would be:

Can HMRC supply figures for the total number of scheme users they had under enquiry on the following dates:

• 31st Dec 2003
• 31st Dec 2004
• 31st Dec 2005
• 31st Dec 2006
• 31st Dec 2007
• 31st Oct 2008 (ie. to date)

If Jane Kennedy's assertion is correct, then there should have been an "unprecedented" increase from 2007 onwards. HMRC cannot fudge this because we can confirm the figures with MP.

Figures for the first 3 years are detailed here.
http://forums.contractoruk.com/672832-post825.html

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Letter from my MP Matthew Taylor (libdem)

Just had a reply to the letter I sent him recently highlighting the potential impact Clause 55 could have on a large number of families (personal insolvency, home repossession, family breakdown etc).

I also mentioned that our legal advisors have applied to the High Court for a Judicial Review.

He is raising the matter with the new Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

[BrilloPad]

I was with the scheme for years 05/06/07 and have never received anything from HMRC, nor did I get a respone from my local MP on the matter, even though I wrote to him twice.

Even MTM have failed to answer 6 of my e-mails or return 2 left messages.

Maybe I dont exist! There is this kid who keeps bugging me everyday day though who says he see's dead people!

I have PMed you - will try to find out what happened.

Sometimes I have seen that what is posted on thread and what happened are totally different - lets wait and see........

[BrilloPad]

I think smalldog is referring to whether there is a time limit for issuing a Closure Notice against an open enquiry now that the law has been changed.

My guess is that they can probably take as long as they like. After all, they are hardly likely to get a flood of complaints from people who haven't received one.

And indeed you are correct Sir.