BN66 - Time to fight back: Continued

[MuddyFunster]

Actually that is true. The ECJ CANNOT reverse UK law.

They can order it to be updated to be compatible, or struck out. We could choose not to, then it eventually becomes handbags at dawn. We have not generally been particularly quick in responding to these directives.

I might be talking crap here, but I think we're getting mixed up with the court that would decide this. It would be the Court of Human Rights; not the Court of Justice (ECJ).

On the ECHR website, it states:

Under Article 46 § 1 of the Convention, states “undertake to abide by the final judgment of the Court in any case to which they are parties”. This undertaking entails precise obligations for respondent states. On the one hand they must take measures in favour of the applicants to put an end to violations and, as far as possible, erase their consequences (restitutio in integrum), and, on the other hand, they must take the measures needed to prevent new, similar violations.

So unless I'm mistaken, they can force them to redress it.

http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/...n.asp#P35_2704

[poppy01]

Firstly referring to a couple of earlier postings I think that there are far more of us than the 25% with no savings facing total ruin. I'm in the offset mortgage camp but it won't nearly be enough.

In that case I guess maybe half of us will be bankrupted, maybe more...
If a thousand people lose their houses over retrospective tax changes,
many I'm sure with young families, we might finally be newsworthy...

[ASB]

So unless I'm mistaken, they can force them to redress it.

http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/...n.asp#P35_2704

You are mistaken sort of.

Neither can force any member state to do anything. They can however demandwe do -that is a different thing.

Yes, we have signed up to the accords etc, so in theory we should abide by it immediately. But the fact remains there is no mechanism to make it happen.

I can't find the examples, but lots of people signed up to what was effectively ECHR in the late '70s. Lots of judgements were made. A lot of these were simply ignored for a long period. In the late 90s there was a fair amount of sabre rattling going on, eventually this did cause nations to change incompatible domestic law.

However we do generally take our treaty obligations seriously, so we will perhaps accede to the demand fairly quickly if it is made (though we don't have a great history at hmg doffing it's cap and doing it).

[Emigre]

yeh it sucks but the last 6 months of stress and worry with the threat of bankruptcy hanging over my head have changed me as a person and probably made me into a complete git....!! to be honest it would have been much better had it been a short sharp process, not draggin on and on and on with an unknown outcome...

I totally sympathise. My long term girlfriend is well unimpressed. There are few if any days that go by without some caustic comment, and who am I to blame her? The financial crisis is probably a blessing in disguise - if we'd been able to sell up and disentangle our financial position we would probably have parted company by now. We still see a long term future together but only with resolution of this situation. We are both second time round and have 3 dependent children between us.

Its clearly breaking homes.

I take BPs point though, as much as I would like to **** Mr in the ***** and meet the resident of #nn in a dark alley, I have to restrain myself and make sure that these people understand the real extent of their illegal, aggressive and bullying tactics. We are above that. We have higher ethics and morals than these people. We will have our day in Court. These people will be seen to be what they really are.

[helen7]

Correct. If you owe "well over" £250,000 - you would [at the very least!] have some kind of basic idea of what’s going on and have carried out [at least!] a little research.

Your posts do not indicate this. They are generally negative and often just wrong (have a look people!). For example in a few of your posts you talk about penalties (at least 40%... etc). One phone call to HMRC or MP would have informed you that there has never been a question of penalties. With your liability you would have looked into this.
[/COLOR]

Many of my letters from HMRC stated that they may intend to seek penalties. When quized Motpellier said they would argue against any penalties imposed.

[SantaClaus]

If we win in the Court Of Human Rights and HMRC still think they can get away with it, I think we should all claim political asylum in Brussels.

[BrilloPad]

Many of my letters from HMRC stated that they may intend to seek penalties. When quized Motpellier said they would argue against any penalties imposed.

Fair point - I have also heard that HMRC have stated this in some letters. They have done alot of other things they should not! But alot of people have checked this out of found it is not the case. Can we now take it as read that no penalties will be imposed?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

for whats its worth all this stress since March has taken its toll on my personal life. Wife moved out two weeks ago, thanks hector...

I am really sad to hear that. I hope you can work things out.

You should write to your MP about it. The government needs shaming for the consequences of their actions.

[silver_lining]

..so many lawyers..

Chaps,

All the talk about whether JR is good, bad indifferent is pointless... and whether the UK legal system adopts judgements etc etc. There are too many wannabe lawyers running around doing R&D and I personally feel filling people with false hope and tearing it away in equal measure. With respect, it takes many many to get ones head around the legal technicalities; as such leave it to the experts. A little knowledge can be a dangersous thing.

The facts as it stands are simple:

It is now Law and therefore we are now liable to pay. Therefore you have a decision

Trust the legal experts i.e. MP to tackle the question of legality OR settle (in whatever form that takes). It really is that simple.

I am getting tired of speculation and rhetoric and like others, want useful confirmed information.

..and before you ask I am in scheme and I too am worried like everyone but I am trying to remain optimisic; but lets be honest and face reality; we are hanging on a small few peoples opinion/ interpretation of the law at the end of the day, so we have a chance.

SL

[BrilloPad]

Chaps,

All the talk about whether JR is good, bad indifferent is pointless... and whether the UK legal system adopts judgements etc etc. There are too many wannabe lawyers running around doing R&D and I personally feel filling people with false hope and tearing it away in equal measure. With respect, it takes many many to get ones head around the legal technicalities; as such leave it to the experts. A little knowledge can be a dangersous thing.

The facts as it stands are simple:

It is now Law and therefore we are now liable to pay. Therefore you have a decision

Trust the legal experts i.e. MP to tackle the question of legality OR settle (in whatever form that takes). It really is that simple.

I am getting tired of speculation and rhetoric and like others, want useful confirmed information.

..and before you ask I am in scheme and I too am worried like everyone but I am trying to remain optimisic; but lets be honest and face reality; we are hanging on a small few peoples opinion/ interpretation of the law at the end of the day, so we have a chance.

SL

Agree with everything said - just to emphasize that by settle I think you mean get a CTD. Please correct me if wrong.

In the abscene of a closed forum there is unlikely to be much info on here - and anyone who puts up anything useful is more of a nutter than me! Why give valuable info to HMRC/government/lawyers?

When I ran my own legal case I had the advice of probably the best family law "barrister" bar a QC. I will never forget the look of my ex's barrister when he introduced himself - the blood drained from her face!! Anyway, he explained how much preparation goes into these things - and how you try to ambush the other side with rare facts. He was particularly good at that.

How would YOU personally feel (this is a question to everyone) if you gave away information that caused us to lose. I know I would be totally gutted!