Is this really an outside IR35 contract?

[funkyContractorITUK]

Hi

I've put in a bid for a contract that is apparently outside IR35 but some alarm bells are ringing in my head that just don't seem to sit right.
This is a senior software engineer role.

During the initial meeting, I asked which part of the code base/organise I would be needed for and they simply replied it depends on which team I'll be needed on any given week. I'm still going to be checking with them if they have an SOW because for me that is vital.
The interview also seemed to be structured like recruiting for a permie, behavior & tech test with questions that seemed to revolve around dealing with line managers.
They are also not willing to let me work condensed hours which seems to be a controlling factor.

Am I being overly cautious? anything I should be asking them to double-check the IR35 determination? Should I avoid it like a plague?

[Ketto]

Doesn’t sound great. All the SDS i have had done recently have specific questions around whether the contractor can be moved from task to task and whether the contractor can set their own schedule (i.e. hours). Not seen the impact of a client saying “yes” and “no” to those respective questions on the outcome as previous clients have always said “no” and “yes” for me.

I would:

Get a copy of the SDS and compare what they have written down to what they are saying

Agree a statement of work and contract

Run this and a working practice review through QDOS

if QDOS and the SDS both say outside, then make a judgement call if the client will in your view treat it as a business to business engagement once on site. I’d be a bit sceptical regards that based on what they are saying so far. Some clients are a bit green about working with contractors outside still, if you have to pull them up on any concerning behaviour whilst on site do you expect them to take those concerns on board and adjust how they deal with you accordingly, or do you think they’ll get the hump and think you’re just being awkward?

Similar situation with current client who were just a bit inexperienced in dealing with contractors on an outside basis and were starting to do some worrying things when i began working on site. But they have listened when i have raised concerns with them and all is going well now. I expected that to happen when i agreed the contract tbh, however i already knew the hiring manager from previous clients and was confident she would work with me to keep things outside, that has fortunately proven to be the case.

[ladymuck]

When you get the SDS try to find out if it was completed by someone in HR with minimal working knowledge of the day to day role or the hiring manager who (you'd hope) should have a clue as to the actual working practices. That should also help you determine whether the determination you've been given has much weight.

Did the "outside" determination come from the agency or was it validated with the client at interview? I tend not to trust what the agency says if they haven't provided the SDS.

[hobnob]

I'm curious what you mean by "putting in a bid". Do you simply mean that you applied for a contract role that was advertised, or have you given them a quote via some kind of tendering process?

[northernladuk]

You are right to be cautious but let the process roll on with open eyes. Bottom line is what the role is. It's possible the role can have you dipping in and out of different projects and still be outside. The difference is if you are being directed and controlled and working beyond the scope of the SoW. It can sound like a general dogs body to do what they want with but if you are, say, an organisational level security bod your role could be to dip in to any given project to provide guidance which if properly worded can still be outsite.

Most clients don't know how to interview a contractor so I wouldn't worry too much about that and the lack of condensed hours is nothing to do with IR35 either. It's just professional courtesy to supply your services in the timelines the client works. It's not really controlling, just the nature of their business. To be fair in all my time contracting I've never seen anyone working condensed hours. Usually professional working hours with some people working a shorter day to travel or family commitments with longer hours here and there.

See what they say in the SoW and be prepared to send it back for re-wording.

[funkyContractorITUK]

I'm curious what you mean by "putting in a bid". Do you simply mean that you applied for a contract role that was advertised, or have you given them a quote via some kind of tendering process?

I meant applied for a contract role that was advertised

[Snooky]

It's possible the role can have you dipping in and out of different projects and still be outside.

Agreed - for example, we have an Agile expert who is involved partially with a number of teams and works with them as required. Seems a bit of an unusual arrangement for a senior software engineer though - unless, of course, you're working as a subject matter expert and various different teams will need your input at different points. But that smells more of direction & control than deliverables where you decide what gets done and how.

To me it sounds a little like the agency are trying to sell it as outside IR35 to attract more candidates and possibly achieve a lower rate, but the client isn't aware of that and doesn't see it that way at all. If the client shows interest, it might be wise to discuss candidly with them what their expectations are, and why you're asking those questions, so that everyone's on the same page.