CEST Outcome Sufficient as SDS?

[l35kee]

So I've been given the result of a CEST questtionate from my future client suggesting the gig is outside IR35. Does this constitute them giving me an SDS? Previously ??I've been asked to go through the QDOS assesssment myself, which is then "approved" by the client.

Just checking if SDS is a thing in itself, or literally just any formal confirmation of the status (so CEST determination would suffice)

[Lance]

So I've been given the result of a CEST questtionate from my future client suggesting the gig is outside IR35. Does this constitute them giving me an SDS? Previously ??I've been asked to go through the QDOS assesssment myself, which is then "approved" by the client.

Just checking if SDS is a thing in itself, or literally just any formal confirmation of the status (so CEST determination would suffice)

CEST != SDS

SDS is a document issued by the client and is a formal verification of the IR35 status.

CEST is just an assessment tool.

[l35kee]

CEST != SDS

SDS is a document issued by the client and is a formal verification of the IR35 status.

CEST is just an assessment tool.

Yeah I understand that, CEST is effectively a tool to help hem make the determination (ignoring the issues of CEST). My question is, is there a formal SDS document (I can't see there is), so is the client sending me and outside confirmation with CEST output as their reasoning sufficient?

[northernladuk]

So I've been given the result of a CEST questtionate from my future client suggesting the gig is outside IR35. Does this constitute them giving me an SDS? Previously ??I've been asked to go through the QDOS assesssment myself, which is then "approved" by the client.

Just checking if SDS is a thing in itself, or literally just any formal confirmation of the status (so CEST determination would suffice)

Lance has nailed it but you do need to be a bit more clued up on this particularly with the fact you filled in the questionaire. This is basic diligence.

We had to jump through hoops to cover ourselves in the old days and nothing has changed just because the client makes the determination. Even more so in your case as you've filled it in and they've approved. I'll bet every penny I have if they had filled it in it wouldn't look like yours. I do despise this method as it makes no sense to me and I can envisage this falling appart at the seams should their ever be an investigation. Will the client understand and agree with the RoS you put in? Do you understand RoS? I'll bet at least one of those answer is no and boom, you've got a false determination. No offence to the OP but some contractors knowledge of IR35 and what they do as a job has a lot to be desired so to leave the IR35 decision up to the contractor is flakey at best.

A quick google would have answered this question and might also have added extra learning you maybe didn't know. The first result I got for IR35 SDS says the following in the first paragraph.

Amendments to the IR35 legislation introduced within the Finance Bill 2020 require that clients provide an IR35 ‘status determination statement’ when assessing the IR35 status of contractors, before a contract begins. A ‘Status Determination Statement’ (SDS) is a comprehensive statement from the client which:

You still need to be diligent and this includes knowing the very basic rules of the legislation and what is required. It's kinda your job to know.

[northernladuk]

Yeah I understand that, CEST is effectively a tool to help hem make the determination (ignoring the issues of CEST). My question is, is there a formal SDS document (I can't see there is), so is the client sending me and outside confirmation with CEST output as their reasoning sufficient?

What is not clear about CEST != SDS?

[Lance]

Yeah I understand that, CEST is effectively a tool to help hem make the determination (ignoring the issues of CEST). My question is, is there a formal SDS document (I can't see there is), so is the client sending me and outside confirmation with CEST output as their reasoning sufficient?

Until the client have paid their first bill it's all in the air as they can change the determination at any stage till that point.
If I had an email saying "this CEST output is good is good enough for us" that would set my mind at ease though. but until that first bill paid by the client (do you even know when that is?) it's always in doubt.

[northernladuk]

Actually, sorry to ramble on, but this presents the perfect example where asking a simple question does not replace knowledge.

So we have answered your question that a CEST is not enough and and SDS must be provided.

What you will not know from this question is that you could fall in to a horrible trap here. The client does not have to produce an SDS until the first pay cycle. I forget the exact wording so this is where you need to go learn what your job is. That means you can start a gig with no SDS and the client can have you working for up to a month, possible more if you are in arrears and then drop and inside SDS on you. It's happened to a number of people on here and I bet more that we do not know about.

You need to know this because you could be in for a horrible surprise. Time to go read up on the new process and the pitfalls and understand it end to end.

[l35kee]

We had to jump through hoops to cover ourselves in the old days and nothing has changed just because the client makes the determination. Even more so in your case as you've filled it in and they've approved. I'll bet every penny I have if they had filled it in it wouldn't look like yours. I do despise this method as it makes no sense to me and I can envisage this falling appart at the seams should their ever be an investigation. Will the client understand and agree with the RoS you put in? Do you understand RoS? I'll bet at least one of those answer is no and boom, you've got a false determination. No offence to the OP but some contractors knowledge of IR35 and what they do as a job has a lot to be desired so to leave the IR35 decision up to the contractor is flakey at best.

Hey, sorry I may have not been clear in the original post. I'm fine with the previous gig where I filled out the QDOS questionnaire and the client approved (and the actual working practices did align to this).

This thread was more around the new gig, and the SDS from them effectively being an email confirming the gig is outside, with their own completed CEST survey attached as the justification for their determination.

A quick google would have answered this question and might also have added extra learning you maybe didn't know. The first result I got for IR35 SDS says the following in the first paragraph.

The following is declared in that link:

• Declares a contractor’s deemed employment status following an IR35 assessment
• Provides reasons for reaching this conclusion.

Which they seem to have done, via the email confirmation and the attachment of their CEST survey. I was wondering if there was a view on an SDS being something more formal than this or not.

[malvolio]

Hey, sorry I may have not been clear in the original post. I'm fine with the previous gig where I filled out the QDOS questionnaire and the client approved (and the actual working practices did align to this).

This thread was more around the new gig, and the SDS from them effectively being an email confirming the gig is outside, with their own completed CEST survey attached as the justification for their determination.



The following is declared in that link:

• Declares a contractor’s deemed employment status following an IR35 assessment
• Provides reasons for reaching this conclusion.

Which they seem to have done, via the email confirmation and the attachment of their CEST survey. I was wondering if there was a view on an SDS being something more formal than this or not.

One fairly significant problem is that HMRC can ignore (and have ignored) CEST outputs and so will disregard them. On that basis, they are no real use as a justification for anything. The SDS is something created by the client and signed off by them as accurate. Since only they really know how they aim to treat you wrt IR35 (as opposed to telling you you're outside so they can get your services without any fuss), anybody else's input on its content is irrelevant. The QDOS review service is done with the client, not the contractor or the agency, for example.

[northernladuk]

Hey, sorry I may have not been clear in the original post. I'm fine with the previous gig where I filled out the QDOS questionnaire and the client approved (and the actual working practices did align to this).

But that's where I get nervous. Do they? You never invoked the RoS so you don't really know and that's been a problem from IR35 day 1. The Sub clause in most contracts is a sham and by you saying you can sub and the client not bothering to check their requirements means it still is.

This thread was more around the new gig, and the SDS from them effectively being an email confirming the gig is outside, with their own completed CEST survey attached as the justification for their determination.

It's in the name of the document. SDS. Status Determination STATEMENT

Where is the statement in an email confirming anything?

The following is declared in that link:

• Declares a contractor’s deemed employment status following an IR35 assessment
• Provides reasons for reaching this conclusion.

Which they seem to have done, via the email confirmation and the attachment of their CEST survey. I was wondering if there was a view on an SDS being something more formal than this or not.

Again, and we've explained this to you numerous times now, It's a STATEMENT. THey have to provide one. You've posted above that it declares deemed employement status. So lets sum this up for you again. A STATEMENT that DECLARES STATUS. Does an email confirming CEST give you that? No.

And as I said, instead of asking us the same question for the 4th time running you need to go away and learn about this. The answer would then be clear.

Here is another link if you don't want to go do it yourself.

https://www.warnergoodman.co.uk/site...ement-for-IR35

A Status Determination Statement (SDS) is a written statement prepared by a business which states the employment status of a contractor whom they engage.

Gotta be smarter than this going forward.