Be careful if you take Outside IR35 contracts

[ShandyDrinker]

I think its great this potential issue is being highlighted. Whilst I do believe the chance of any one individual being caught out by this is relatively low, the impact if it does happen is significant, so people do need to understand the risks, ask the right questions and make their own judgements from there. My concern is that so many contractors *are* disguised employees, not business owners, act as such and want others to tell them what to do.

^^^ This.

Even if some aren't disguised employees, many contractors aren't doing their due diligence and proper risk management. As you say, even if the risk is relatively low, the resulting tax bill could be substantial. Are people prepared to take that risk?

[ensignia]

My concern is that so many contractors *are* disguised employees, not business owners, act as such and want others to tell them what to do.

Well, duh. Everyone knows this; it's not exactly a big secret.

I don't know why so many on here are hellbent on being painted as victims of unfair HMRC targeting them. This will affect 0.001% of contractors, yet people will act like the brown envelopes will be heading their way imminently to 1000s of contractors and to ready themselves to pay huge amounts.

No one is saying don't take precautions and don't read the terms of your contract, but that's always been the case. Honestly this place is so unbelievably paranoid.

I had a visit from HMRC around 4 years ago, they asked me a bunch of questions about working practices and I never heard from them again, but yeah they're out to get us using their cutting edge technology.

[WTFH]

Well, duh. Everyone knows this; it's not exactly a big secret.

I don't know why so many on here are hellbent on being painted as victims of unfair HMRC targeting them. This will affect 0.001% of contractors, yet people will act like the brown envelopes will be heading their way imminently to 1000s of contractors and to ready themselves to pay huge amounts.

No one is saying don't take precautions and don't read the terms of your contract, but that's always been the case. Honestly this place is so unbelievably paranoid.

I had a visit from HMRC around 4 years ago, they asked me a bunch of questions about working practices and I never heard from them again, but yeah they're out to get us using their cutting edge technology.

Congratulations, you're quite rude and belittling.
This thread is here to help others.

If you don't think it applies to you, great. Kindly stay away from it.

out of interest, was the HMRC visit the cause or result of your wife’s bankruptcy?

[eek]

Well, duh. Everyone knows this; it's not exactly a big secret.

I don't know why so many on here are hellbent on being painted as victims of unfair HMRC targeting them. This will affect 0.001% of contractors, yet people will act like the brown envelopes will be heading their way imminently to 1000s of contractors and to ready themselves to pay huge amounts.

No one is saying don't take precautions and don't read the terms of your contract, but that's always been the case. Honestly this place is so unbelievably paranoid.

I had a visit from HMRC around 4 years ago, they asked me a bunch of questions about working practices and I never heard from them again, but yeah they're out to get us using their cutting edge technology.

Let's look at 1 example from the public sector where DWP paid HMRC £87m.

Assuming each contractor had a bill of £25,000 that's 3480 contractors all of whom could potentially have to find £25,000 when the agency / fee payer is asked to pay.

Now you may say it's completely unlikely but given that the entire point of the new approach is that HMRC can look for weak cases and may then ask for the other x00 or x,000 contractors to pay up it's a risk I wouldn't personally want to take.

[jamesbrown]

Off topic for this post, but I'd argue that *many* posts across these boards (not least the "loans" tax avoidance schemes people openly signed up for) suggest the second part of that sentence does not entirely hold true.

On the contrary, it merely shows that adults can make bad decisions. Participation in aggressive tax avoidance schemes simply reveals that people have different levels of ignorance and risk tolerance, as they will w/r to IR35 and life more generally. You can take a horse to water etc. As I noted earlier, I am personally avoiding all Chapter 10 outside contracts, but I highly doubt that will be the approach taken by all but a minority here. In other words, posters like ensignia have now been informed and what they do with that information is entirely up to them.

[ensignia]

Congratulations, you're quite rude and belittling.
This thread is here to help others.

If you don't think it applies to you, great. Kindly stay away from it.

out of interest, was the HMRC visit the cause or result of your wife’s bankruptcy?

Rude and belittling

So many on here simply cannot handle an opposing view, at all. The MO of this forum and the old guard who infest it seem to think they're above others and constantly try to beat people down or scaremonger. It isn't to help others; I've lost count of the number of times a newbie has been treated like a child or castigated for daring to ask a simple question.

Besides, does anyone know of a case where HMRC have come knocking, outside of the tiny handful which are always publicised? I know hundreds of contractors and virtually all of them were the type of permietractor which HMRC apparently knows about and is constantly targeting, yet not a single person has been investigated or asked to explain their business. It's astonishing that people think this new guidance on Outside contracts is anything other than a small PR exercise to trigger a few fat old programmers.

You can try and create all this nonsense hype about something that no one will ever experience, and I can carry on double and triple billing

out of interest, was the HMRC visit the cause or result of your wife’s bankruptcy?

Also, no idea what you're on about with this line, but it marks you out as a bit of hypocrite.

[ShandyDrinker]

Rude and belittling

So many on here simply cannot handle an opposing view, at all. The MO of this forum and the old guard who infest it seem to think they're above others and constantly try to beat people down or scaremonger. It isn't to help others; I've lost count of the number of times a newbie has been treated like a child or castigated for daring to ask a simple question.

Besides, does anyone know of a case where HMRC have come knocking, outside of the tiny handful which are always publicised? I know hundreds of contractors and virtually all of them were the type of permietractor which HMRC apparently knows about and is constantly targeting, yet not a single person has been investigated or asked to explain their business. It's astonishing that people think this new guidance on Outside contracts is anything other than a small PR exercise to trigger a few fat old programmers.

You can try and create all this nonsense hype about something that no one will ever experience, and I can carry on double and triple billing

Many of us on here, and I'm by no means a regular, are trying to give people the necessary information to make an informed decision. It's not a case of scaremongering. It's called risk management and running a business is something any person that wants to stay in business for any length of time needs to do. You are welcome to make an informed decision to continue as you are doing.

It's the responsible thing to do to suggest people read all the terms of their contracts and be aware of the pitfalls. I'm sure those people who took on their QC approved loan schemes thought it's worth the risk. It was work the risk, until it wasn't.

People need to be aware of the risks that exist now because of the change from chapter 8 to chapter 10 and any associated contract clauses and the implications as such.

Your comment that you know hundreds of contractors and none have ever been investigated - that's great for you. I know of 2 contractors personally that have been investigated for IR35 (1 took 5 years back and forth and ended up paying a single figure 000s and the other closed it off after a year after getting the right people involved). I also know of 1 person that was on the wrong side of the loan charge, even though he said it was a low risk scheme and then ended up in a world of s*** when it blew up in his face.

Sadly you're being just as bad as you seem to be inferring WTFH to be.

[jamesbrown]

Also, no idea what you're on about with this line, but it marks you out as a bit of hypocrite.

Your input here is beginning to look more like trolling than offering anything useful.

[Whitelime]

So what's everyone's opinion on IR35 Insurance given the topic of this thread?

If you're confident in your outside status, and not forced to work through an Umbrella because of blanket rules, 2 days billing covers you for £250k.

[cojak]

Rude and belittling

So many on here simply cannot handle an opposing view, at all. The MO of this forum and the old guard who infest it seem to think they're above others and constantly try to beat people down or scaremonger. It isn't to help others; I've lost count of the number of times a newbie has been treated like a child or castigated for daring to ask a simple question.

Besides, does anyone know of a case where HMRC have come knocking, outside of the tiny handful which are always publicised? I know hundreds of contractors and virtually all of them were the type of permietractor which HMRC apparently knows about and is constantly targeting, yet not a single person has been investigated or asked to explain their business. It's astonishing that people think this new guidance on Outside contracts is anything other than a small PR exercise to trigger a few fat old programmers.

You can try and create all this nonsense hype about something that no one will ever experience, and I can carry on double and triple billing



Also, no idea what you're on about with this line, but it marks you out as a bit of hypocrite.

Well, you carry on double and triple billing This thread obviously isn’t aimed at you, so you can go on with your day unencumbered by this, can’t you.