How does \ should client determine a role is out of scope for IR35 determination?

[washed up contractor]

OK have not been able to find anything on this.

EDIT found this and looks overtly complicated! http://www.contractoruk.com/news/001...re_caught.html

Ive been approached by an agent about a contract role within the aerospace industry. The agent said client would consider people who were not SC'd but willing to submit. Ive had SC before and dont anticipate any issues. Work will be carried out at the Aerospace co's site and not any PSB's.

However, the SC requirement rang my PS bell so I asked the agent if the end client (or themselves) had made a determination whether the role was inside or outside IR35. The response from the agent was that this is a role 'with a commercial client who are outside the (new!) regulations.'

Well he would say that wouldnt he? And, they may be outside but the role may not since if SC is required, Id guess that MOD may be the end client?

So, what criteria or mechanism should the client use to determine whether a role is outside the scope of IR35?

Im not talking about them using the ESS tool to say a role is inside or not. This is a question more of what do they have to consider to decide what is in scope and what is not?

Can I make them give me reasons how they reached the 'not in scope' determination?

If they refuse to make a decision or, insist the role is out of scope but later turns out the role is in scope and they should have made an in \ out IR35 determination, who would be liable, the contractor, agent or client?

I would intend using the ESS tool if offered a contract for my piece of mind since a caught role isnt of interest due to the overnight expenses required.

Thanks

[northernladuk]

You'd use a flawed tool for a private sector client for peace of mind?

Why don't you wait to see who the client is first before worrying? At least get to the interview stage before getting all tinfoil hat surely?

I'll bet your lack of SC will be the end of it though. Where abouts is it based? Maybe try guess the client? I'll guess BAe.

[WTFH]

I wouldn't panic about the IR35 part at this stage. If you get offered an interview and if you are successful at the interview, then you could bring it up with the agent, if it has not been covered already by the agent.

When you say the end client may be the MOD, are you saying that the role you have been offered is with a consultancy?
It could be BAe or Thales or Bombardier or Rolls Royce or... well, there are lots of companies in the aerospace industry where people might have access to sensitive material, and those companies might sell their products to the MOD, but that doesn't mean that people who work for them are inside IR35, just because one of their customers is the MOD.
So, stop panicking, try to get an interview, don't bug the client about IR35, and then, if you get past the interview stage, then you might have a better idea.

[MrMarkyMark]

I wouldn't panic about the IR35 part at this stage. If you get offered an interview and if you are successful at the interview, then you could bring it up with the agent, if it has not been covered already by the agent.

When you say the end client may be the MOD, are you saying that the role you have been offered is with a consultancy?
It could be BAe or Thales or Bombardier or Rolls Royce or... well, there are lots of companies in the aerospace industry where people might have access to sensitive material, and those companies might sell their products to the MOD, but that doesn't mean that people who work for them are inside IR35, just because one of their customers is the MOD.
So, stop panicking, try to get an interview, don't bug the client about IR35, and then, if you get past the interview stage, then you might have a better idea.

This +1.

Wait until you actually get a chance to talk to them before you start worrying about anything IR35 related.

As far as using the defunct ESS tool, I cannot see that being worth diddly squat under any type of circumstances.

[TheFaQQer]

You'd use a flawed tool for a private sector client for peace of mind?

If the tool is completed accurately and gives an outside determination, then why wouldn't you? HMRC have repeatedly said that they will accept the determination as long as it is completed correctly.

My private sector client completed the assessment for me and it gave a clear outside, so I'm keeping that one just in case HMRC come calling. I think you'd be crazy to throw away any evidence that you are outside IR35.

[MrMarkyMark]

If the tool is completed accurately and gives an outside determination, then why wouldn't you? HMRC have repeatedly said that they will accept the determination as long as it is completed correctly.

My private sector client completed the assessment for me and it gave a clear outside, so I'm keeping that one just in case HMRC come calling. I think you'd be crazy to throw away an evidence that you are outside IR35.

I understand your point, but does this actually hold true today?

Especially given the new tools existence?

[TheFaQQer]

I understand your point, but does this actually hold true today?

Especially given the new tools existence?

I've just completed an assessment and ESS still says "HMRC will stand by the result given unless a compliance check finds the information provided isn't accurate." at the end of it (version 1.5.0-final)

[MrMarkyMark]

I've just completed an assessment and ESS still says "HMRC will stand by the result given unless a compliance check finds the information provided isn't accurate." at the end of it (version 1.5.0-final)

OK, well it definitely sounds better than nothing then , ta.

The OP has just got to get an interview and the role now, then he knows what to do

[washed up contractor]

You'd use a flawed tool for a private sector client for peace of mind?

Why don't you wait to see who the client is first before worrying? At least get to the interview stage before getting all tinfoil hat surely?

I'll bet your lack of SC will be the end of it though. Where abouts is it based? Maybe try guess the client? I'll guess BAe.

Oh god. You're so anal it is unbelievable. So unbelievable Im amazed you 'won' the site award for the most helpful poster or something years ago. You are really anything but helpful. How you escape censure from the mods is also amazing given the amount of grief you give out to people here.

In the absence of anything in writing from the client yes, I would use a 'flawed' employment tool since even the 'flawed' tool would show HMRC some attempt was made in determining status if the worst came about. IR35 still applies in the Private Sector you numpty.

You might think 'Im worrying,' I call it due care and dilligence. It is what contractors should do.

The lack of SC may 'do me,' it may not since the client has already got past that by calling an interview. Where is it based? WTF has that got to do with anything, desparate for a job are we?

Oh, other than that,thanks for you help.Not.

[washed up contractor]

I wouldn't panic about the IR35 part at this stage. If you get offered an interview and if you are successful at the interview, then you could bring it up with the agent, if it has not been covered already by the agent.

When you say the end client may be the MOD, are you saying that the role you have been offered is with a consultancy?
It could be BAe or Thales or Bombardier or Rolls Royce or... well, there are lots of companies in the aerospace industry where people might have access to sensitive material, and those companies might sell their products to the MOD, but that doesn't mean that people who work for them are inside IR35, just because one of their customers is the MOD.
So, stop panicking, try to get an interview, don't bug the client about IR35, and then, if you get past the interview stage, then you might have a better idea.

Thanks for the insight but I find it pretty insulting people think Im panicking. Im asking questions regarding a situation I havent come across before.

No, it isnt a consultancy, the end client is an aerospace company.