IR35 Update following discussion group yesterday - survey request

[The Spartan]

No, surely that can't be classed as direction. That's the requirement\your deliverable, if they told you how to do it, then that's direction.

I was being a bit pedantic there if I'm honest

It was more an example of how it open things up to misinterpretation

[gables]

I was being a bit pedantic there if I'm honest

It was more an example of how it open things up to misinterpretation

Indeed and it's a big issue

[Contreras]

Which is why there needs to be a liability on the clients for making that decision. Make them liable for employers NI if they do so and it will make at least some of them stop and think about it properly.

Make them liable for employment rights (or at risk of) and it will make ALL of them stop and think about it properly.

[Pondlife]

Done

[gables]

Done

What ya done?

[WordIsBond]

you don't think your rate will suddenly drop by 13.8% if this was the case? whether the client pays it directly or you pay it, you're the one that will be losing out, not them

No, I don't think my rate will suddenly drop. Their decision to throw me into IR35 will still cost me money, even if they pay the employer NI. I'm not going to take the full hit, thanks.

If the government decides to make IR35 an engager decision but still lets the engager throw the whole tax burden on the contractor, my rate will go up for any engager who decides I'm inside.

I have one contract currently running that is inside and several that are outside. The one that is inside isn't the client's fault, it's just one of those things. I don't charge anything extra. But if clients start hitting me with a huge tax bill just so they can feel secure, they can pay me for it, thank you very much.

Would I negotiate? Perhaps, if I really wanted the job. But there's no way I'll eat the whole amount unless I want the job and the nature of it makes IR35 inevitable. Then, it's not the client's sense of security driving it, it's the job. I can live with that. But I'm not going to give up 20-25% of my income (or whatever it will come out to) just to buy security for the client.

[pr1]

No, I don't think my rate will suddenly drop. Their decision to throw me into IR35 will still cost me money, even if they pay the employer NI. I'm not going to take the full hit, thanks.

If the government decides to make IR35 an engager decision but still lets the engager throw the whole tax burden on the contractor, my rate will go up for any engager who decides I'm inside.

I have one contract currently running that is inside and several that are outside. The one that is inside isn't the client's fault, it's just one of those things. I don't charge anything extra. But if clients start hitting me with a huge tax bill just so they can feel secure, they can pay me for it, thank you very much.

Would I negotiate? Perhaps, if I really wanted the job. But there's no way I'll eat the whole amount unless I want the job and the nature of it makes IR35 inevitable. Then, it's not the client's sense of security driving it, it's the job. I can live with that. But I'm not going to give up 20-25% of my income (or whatever it will come out to) just to buy security for the client.

thank you too

[WordIsBond]

Make them liable for employment rights (or at risk of) and it will make ALL of them stop and think about it properly.

Yes, but I think that is pretty easy to solve. They'll just include contract provisions disclaiming employment rights that the contractor has to sign. And the rate will be X+Y. X is compensation for the work done, Y is compensation for the disavowal of employment rights, and we're paid X+Y=Z. Done and dusted, employment rights become a non-issue.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Yes, but I think that is pretty easy to solve. They'll just include contract provisions disclaiming employment rights that the contractor has to sign. And the rate will be X+Y. X is compensation for the work done, Y is compensation for the disavowal of employment rights, and we're paid X+Y=Z. Done and dusted, employment rights become a non-issue.

I don't think you could actually do that via a contract - even if it was signed, if there was then an issue that went to a Tribunal, say, I don't think the disclaimer would have any weight in law

[jamesbrown]

I don't think you could actually do that via a contract - even if it was signed, if there was then an issue that went to a Tribunal, say, I don't think the disclaimer would have any weight in law

IIRC, it's only possible through a Settlement Agreement, subject to the Employment Rights Act (ERA). I think Settlement Agreements have limited scope, such as the compensation that might be payable upon the resolution of a particular dispute, and do not involve "signing away" all employment rights. The ERA specifically prevents this without a Settlement Agreement AFAIK.