No To Retro Tax - Ongoing battle against S58 FA2008

[Disgusted of Coventry]

I suspect that if HMRC wish to follow through on their threat, then each member who makes the application will get a COP 9.

Could they really do this? It would be the most spectacular abuse of their power. Completely off the scale!

[Britspud]

COP9 Fear, uncertainty and doubt

Could they really do this? It would be the most spectacular abuse of their power. Completely off the scale!

There's a certain amount of FUD about this COP9 thing. I looked it up on Google because I wasn't familiar with it. It seems to suggest that serving a COP9 gives the tax payer, whom the revenue suspect of fraudulent activities, the opportunity to admit and provide details of fraud so that they don't then pursue a criminal investigation.

But it's clear to everyone on here that by the very definition, it can't have been fraud since there was no intent...we were all just acting on professional advice. The employment status is, after all, an interpretation of their complex rules, and something which they challenge regularly under IR35 without accusing the taxpayer concerned with fraud. Ultimately, it goes to tribunal which we're all bent on doing anyway.

So what am I missing that's making people on here jittery about COP9s? Is it just the hassle factor?

B.

[Britspud]

I suspect that if HMRC wish to follow through on their threat, then each member who makes the application will get a COP 9.

That then allows HMRC considerable freedom to request all sorts of things from bank accounts, through court orders to credit card bills to which internet sites you pay for. In other words a full drains up investigation.

That is double edged to a degree because it takes considerable HMRC resource.

You will also have your files marked as such and any year not presently under enquiry but in time will be opened and all tax returns submitted from now also enquired into.

HMRC may threaten to write to third parties about you (employer, agent, mortgage company, credit scoring agency, etc) asking for information (and by implication casting aspersions).

They may contact your accountant/agent. Check your VAT compliance. Check your NIC records. Look at your benefit claims.

Make no mistake that HMRC's reach is long and all they need is an allegation of fraud. Hopefully CCW will either engage a law firm as required or have the internal resources to resist such invidious excursion into your life.

So when DR mentions unleashing dogs, these bite and bark.

Be prepared.

Ah, I've just found the post which is making people worried about this...but are there not checks and balances for this? As you say, it's going to take significant resources on their side...surely even in HMRC it must be justified with some real indication that fraud exists? It's clear to see that this is only ever opinion, and we're changing our positions on the basis of new advice.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I don't think the guys we're dealing with in HMRC really understand this "self-employed vs employed" stuff. Their area of expertise is trusts, foreign income etc.

To illustrate this, below is an excerpt from one of the witness statements given at the Huitson JR.

Extract from McD's witness statement.jpg - Files.com

Do you see what I mean?

[BrilloPad]

If DR wants to set up a S58 notice board I can lock it and he can send me updates to post.

(I can move posts from here to there, he just has to tell me which ones need to be moved.)

Many thanks.

I have thought of an alternative. Filter on all DR's posts.

Thing is I don't want to wait for a monthly newsletter. But I don't want to read 50 posts a day!

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Many thanks.

I have thought of an alternative. Filter on all DR's posts.

Thing is I don't want to wait for a monthly newsletter. But I don't want to read 50 posts a day!

If HMRC can find time to read them all, surely you can.

You are not saying you are busier than HMRC are you?

[BrilloPad]

If HMRC can find time to read them all, surely you can.

You are not saying you are busier than HMRC are you?

Maybe I am HMRC? I did create the sockie AlanBra***gan back in 2009.

[CanPayButWouldRatherNot]

I am an - and have been - an NTRT member for many years and am affected by the same stress as everyone else here.

I won't be able to use the TAA argument as it might affect my future position and hence have voted 'No'.

.

@RunningMan ..Think I am with you on this ... from mtm to the loan scheme .. but from 2010 til now I run a ltd company but terrified that the "drains up" COP 9 would see every single expense ever claimed being questioned. You could argue that I am already on the radar as dodgy having been with MTM and there is a chance I would get captured anyway ...

but Poking the bear ..is that sensible I ask myself (where is that crystal ball ?)

So haven't voted yet ...

[DonkeyRhubarb]

If you are comparing potential liabilties for different tax years 2001 to 2014

One thing to take into account is the interest.

Example

If your liability for 2001/2 was £30k. This would be £49k with interest (64%).

The same £30k liability in 2008/9 would be £35k (17% interest).

Likewise for 2011/12 it would only be £33k (10%).

[Britspud]

@RunningMan ..Think I am with you on this ... from mtm to the loan scheme .. but from 2010 til now I run a ltd company but terrified that the "drains up" COP 9 would see every single expense ever claimed being questioned. You could argue that I am already on the radar as dodgy having been with MTM and there is a chance I would get captured anyway ...

but Poking the bear ..is that sensible I ask myself (where is that crystal ball ?)

So haven't voted yet ...

I guess it depends how long you were in the scheme and how much you were earning...but I don't think many people on here would think that being taxed on a few expenses could compare with the bill for even one year on DTA/EBT if you rely on S58 FTT and it's lost.

If you've been earning 100k a year, your tax adjustment will be around 25-30k per year, plus NI and interest. Your expenses bill must be quite something if it's potentially more expensive to have your last few years expenses turned over than to pay your MTM/EBT adjustment!